Ted Simmons more deserving than Munson

theczar

i know there is a big discussion on this board about munson. but going strictly on numbers and not what city they played in, Ted Simmons was a much better hitter than Munson but he toiled most of his career on weak teams and was overshadowed by Johnny Bench at all-star time. it would be a travesty in Munson went in before Simmons.

Simmons had 95+ RBI's 6 times
2472 hits (more than Berra and Fisk)
248 HR
1389 RBI (more than Bench)
1074 Runs scored (more than Carter)

and batted a respectable .285.

Gemmy10

Yes, yes, yes. Put Simmons in. Throw Fisk out.

zef204

Gemmy, go back to the rock you crawled out from under.

Axtell

(Typical yankee lover response will be)


'But but but but Munson was the yankee captain! He would have put up way more numbers had he not died! Fisk couldn't carry Munson's jock!'

tkd7

I recommend www.baseball-reference.com if you have never browsed it. It has a wealth of BB info. Anyway, one thing they have is the "Hall of Fame Monitor". Basically, you get points for various accomplishments. A score of 100 makes you a borderline HOF candidate. The farther above, the stronger the candidate. I know some hate these things, but it is a way to analyze a pretty subjective argument.

Anyway, I looked at the players that have been discussed. Like the HOF, the monitor is biased to career stats.

The top active hitter is Bonds with 353; the top active pitcher is Clemens with 313.

Of the players that have bounced around.....

Johnny Bench 214
Jim Rice 146
Gary Carter 135
Don Mattingly 133
Ted Simmons 124
Carlton Fisk 120
Thurman Munson 89

As a fan, I agree. Munson isn't a HOFer. He is a Yankee great, but doesn't belong in the Hall. Looking at numbers and knowing the players, I think a case can be made for Rice and Mattingly. Simmons also can make a case. I remember him being a great hitter in the late 80s and early 90s.

Other interesting numbers from this metric
Pedro Martinez 181
Alex Rodriguez 211
Rafael Palmeiro 156
Manny Ramirez 156
Mariano Rivera 138
Jack Morris 122
Derek Jeter 132
Ron Guidry 106
Roger Maris 83

As an objective Yankee fan, I don't think Maris or Munson belong in the HOF. Munson was a great player and made a big impression on me as a kid, but he was on the downswing of his career and I don't think his career would have been HOF caliber if his career wasn't unfortunately ended early.

OK, back to the rants..............

TedSimmonsFan

theczar
I like the way you think. Being a Ted Simmons fan as my user name indicates, I feel his numbers are indeed worth looking at as he was an all star on relatively bad teams overshadowed by the great Johnny Bench. It was a sad day for me in 1981 when the cards traded for the late Darrell Porter and sent Simmons packing to the Brewers. I personally wouldn't mind seeing both Munson and Simmons in the hall someday along with Ken Boyer and Ron Santo, but don't think that any will actually make it.

baseballfanatic

Although baseball-reference is good for stats, longevity has a lot to do with how it is used. Using thier HOF monitor, Bill Mazeroski weighs in at 62.0., while HOF credentials are usually 100+. Nothing against Maz, but baseball isnt just measured in stats

tkd7

Yes, just a tool. But you have to admit, the Hall definitely favors longevity.

As my dad always says, 90% of sports is hot air. If it was too serious, it wouldn't be fun.

jad22

I agree, Simmons is certainly more worthy than Munson.

jskirwin

My .02 for Simmons. Definitely underrated - not that I'm biased or anything.

footballfan

Ted Simmons and Thurman Munson should be in the Hall of Fame.

Lothar52

I agree...put em both in....why the heck not??

DirtyHarry

I've never taken the position that Munson should be in the HOF...just that he should get his due as a great ballplayer within his era... and a tragic ending. I must say that I never closely looked at Simmon's stats.....he does not get the kudos he deserves. Yet, he will remain in semi-star status....like Rice, Mattlingly, Murphy, Dawson and others. And that's the correct status IMO. Regards.

jaybyrd

Joe Torre will probably go in as a manger, but he put up some pretty good numbers when he was a player. Won a batting title in the early 70's and he wasn't legging out any infield hits back then either.

Would be interesting to see his numbers matched up against Munson's career numbers.

DirtyHarry

jaybryd - not nitpicking on you. This is a general statement. We should stop comparing numbers with a guy who DIED (Munson) during his playing days versus career numbers of other players. The Munson thing has reeled out of control. There are only 1 or 2 guys on the board who want to say Munson should be in the HOF, but 99 guys say he doesn't belong. Point taken - majority consensus!!!!!!! He is not going to be in the HOF, never, nada, no way! This from a fan. Unfortunately, he was a Yankee. Thus, the trashing.

In a similar vein of thought, I wonder what kind of stats Lou Gerhig may have finished with if he had not DIED with productive years ahead of him. Would Bonds be chasing Aaron or Gerhig? Would Babe Ruth be the icon that he is...if Gerhig had surpassed many of his accomplishments? Just fodder for the fire. Regards.

Boopotts

<< <i>theczar
I like the way you think. Being a Ted Simmons fan as my user name indicates, I feel his numbers are indeed worth looking at as he was an all star on relatively bad teams overshadowed by the great Johnny Bench. It was a sad day for me in 1981 when the cards traded for the late Darrell Porter and sent Simmons packing to the Brewers. I personally wouldn't mind seeing both Munson and Simmons in the hall someday along with Ken Boyer and Ron Santo, but don't think that any will actually make it. >>



Wow. How did Darrel Porter die? The '82 Cards are my favorite team of all time.

bobbybakeriv

Cocaine.

Story on Porter's death


Another sad end due to stupidity. It just makes a person sick to hear about these stories. God rest his soul.

ArnyVee

Wow...I hadn't heard of that. Sad...friggin' drugs.

larryallen73

Growing up a Dodger fan in '70's I was scared of Munson (much more than Simmons) in the 77 and 78 Series. However, while we are at it, Steve Yeager for the HOF! Really, just take his best year and multiply out over a 40 or 50 year career and he would almost have HOF numbers!

Brian48

If Munson had not died, he would have probably wounded up in Cleveland eventually and he wouldn't be remembered as a Yankee great. He always wanted to be close to home and I distinctly remember towards his last days, he mentioned he wouldn't have minded a trade or would have opted for free agency. Of course, the Yankees would have never let him go without a fight.

jad22

Dirty Harry, you are a twit. Jim Rice dominated baseball for a decade. Look at the stats you mindless drone. History in 10 to 20 years will look at Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson and Darrell Evans more closely due to the fact that many of the great sluggers if the last 15 years are drug abusing hacks. Bill Maz and Phil Rizzuto should not be in the hall.

JoeBanzai

Back to Ted Simmons for just a moment. I remember him as a good consistant, but not a great player, his stats ARE pretty impressive. Check out the fact that he drove in an average of 92 runs a year and struck out only 46 times a year. He also caught a lot of games for 10-12 years. The only reason I would argue against him is a quote I once heard that said you had to be a "great and a SPECIAL" player to get in the HOF. There are quite a few marginal players in the HOF, I don't think Ted quite makes it, but I wouldn't think it a travesty if he gets in.

One thing said about Munson bothers me, you can't be sure he was on the "downside" of his career, even though it appears his skills were diminishing. Fisk continued to play well long enough to guarantee enshrinement, even though in "head to head" years with Munson might not have been as valuable to his team.

Like it or not, longevity is a huge factor in getting in, unless like Koufax, you are completely dominant for several years AND the voters love you.

JoeBanzai

jayhawke

I agree with jaybyrd, Torre put up some really good numbers as a catcher. Compare apples to apples. In other words, compare a span of his career to a span in other catchers career. Torre will probably be a HOF a manager and if that happens his entire coaching staff, trainers, etc should be inducted just for being a part of a team that could self manage themselves. Don't forget the "Boss", better put him in first or he will be sore.

Cubfan

You cant really put Torre's career numbers in a comparison with other catchers as he was primarily a catcher only in his first 8 years and was a 1B-3B for his last 9 years, including his big years in St. Louis.

levy73

What about Steve Garvey. He had nearly 2600 hits (and a .294 batting average) over his career and if I am not mistaken holds the national league record for consecutive games played. If I recall, he was pretty solid definsively (81 errors over his career, 42 of which were at 3rd base during the first two years of his career) and was great at scooping the low throw out of the dirt at first.

larryallen73

I agree with levy73. Garvey is not in the HOF because of the bad press AFTER his career in my opinion. Ugly divorce, multiple babies, etc.... Not that bad as far as pro athletes go but bad for Mr. Clean! He was a .300 hitter many years when hitting .300 actually meant something! I am Dodger bias though. I would probably put Lopes, Baker, Smith, etc... if they let me vote! Go Big Blue!

glmueller

neither one should make it.