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Lothar52
Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭
the "great" 70's yankee catcher Thurman Munson???
Ive not heard much about the guy..not seen any espn classic shows about him....got any memories about thurman munson??? Just curious.
thanks!
loth
Ive not heard much about the guy..not seen any espn classic shows about him....got any memories about thurman munson??? Just curious.
thanks!
loth
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loth, I have a lot to say about him.
Seriously if you get the YES Network they have a Yankeeography about Thurman which they play occasionally or you can order Yankeeography, Vol. 1 (2004) at Amazon which includes Munson, Jeter, Ruth, Guidry, Mattingly, and Torre. The Munson one is well done but a tear jerker when his former teammates reminisce about the plane crash and his death.
loth
Now, there were rarely more than three of us at the hotel, and I can honestly say all of us were pretty courteous when it came to asking, if a player said no, or ignored us, we didn't generally pursue the matter - but for the most part, all of the players were accomodating, even some of the so-called "tough signers" signed for us, and then there were guys like Al Kaline, Brooks Robinson, and Frank Howard who just went out of there way to be super nice.
Carlton Fisk was pretty tough, but if there were only one or two he'd sign. Yaz would look around and make sure no one was watching, and sign. Frank Robinson would always give you a cold stare, as if to test your courage, but he'd sign and smile when you said "thank you". During the 1972 World Series Pete Rose and Johnny Bench proved elusive, Bench would give the "In a hurry" excuse, then sit on the bus for 15 minutes. I never saw Rose all week, except at the park and he wasn't signing there. Then there were guys like George Hendrick, a mediocre A's outfielder who happened to live at the same hotel the visiting players stayed at. George would come out dressed to the "nines", 1970s style. The routine went something like this.
ME: "Hey George, cool threads, man...got time for an autograph?"
GEORGE: "No."
Every weekend, same routine. Did get him to sign one, though, after the game in the players parking lot.
Then there was Thurman Munson.
You have to understand that I was a very naive young boy. My world was baseball, ballplayers were my hereoes, and I was taught to be nice to people and people would generally be nice to you. The autograph thing was really one of my favorite activities as I got to meet all these pro ball players up close. Being a sheltered child, I had really never come into contact with anyone who had a "chip on his shoulder", was "angry at the world", or certainly not psychotic.
My first encounter with Munson was at the team hotel. This was in the early 1970s when the Yankees were one of the worst teams in baseball, but still a bunch of prima donnas when it came to us autograph collectors and fans...overall they were one of the toughest teams to get autographs from. This was probably Munson's 2nd or 3rd year in the bigs.
ME: "Mr. Munson, can I have your autograph?"
Blank stare.
The next meeting came maybe two years later. I had pretty much given up on getting Yankee autographs because it usually turned out to be a waste of time. Even I could only get Dooley Womack, Jake Gibbs, and Horace Clarke just so many times. I would still go to the ballpark early and try to get autographs during batting practice. Most players who didn't want to sign would carry both gloves and bats in their hands and when you asked, would just kind of shrug as if to say, "sorry, hands full". One game I'm there early, and I'm by myself. It's a good day and doing pretty well for once. Well, here comes Munson walking very slowly, his no-earflap batting helmet and holding only his catchers glove under his arm. Once again I give it a go:
ME: "Mr. Munson, got time for a autograph?"
He stopped for a second, and I thought he was going to sign for me. But then let loose the biggest wad of spit I've ever seen in my life, splattering all over the concrete below where I was standing. He certainly wasn't aiming for me but clearly sending a message. Then he kept walking kind of chuckling to himself, obviously pleased with showing up a 14-year old kid.
I can't remember when the last encounter was, but I'm pretty sure I was older, so it could have been maybe two years later. It was at the hotel once again, and this time I was determined to get Munson. I had grown quite a bit, and being 16, was getting fearless and stupid. I had a Plan A and Plan B all set. As this was one of my most memorable encounters with any athlete, I remember it well. There are maybe 4-5 of us trying to get autographs this time, and Munson appears, by himself as usual. So we all go to him with the usual requests and he basically ignores us. That was Plan A. The others gave up. I followed Munson towards the bus...it was time for Plan B...
...I was going to beg...
(I don't remember the exact words, but the exchange went something like this)
ME: "Please Mr. Munson, I've been trying get your autograph for my collection for years, can't you sign just one?" and kind of manuvered myself in his path. By this time I was at least as tall as he was. He stopped. In all of these encounters he never said a word to me or any of the other guys. Not a single "no" or "sorry, in a hurry".
Munson looked at me with the kind of blank, psychotic stare you see in mug shots of serial killers. The mustache and 3 day growth and his stocky build gave him a bit of a well-dressed Hell's Angels look. I thought I was going to lose control of my bodily functions. I thought I was a goner.
MUNSON (in only a slightly raised voice): "GET OUT OF MY "F*^%#NG WAY!", which I did, bowels still intact, and then he muttered something under his breath as he boarded the bus.
To this day, I harbor a severe (sporting) hatred for all things Yankees.
<< <i>I see he had awesome stats in your sig....I dont care if he only played 10 years....he deserves to be in THE HALL
Awesome stats??? Hmmm....
sucks he wouldnt sign for you....sometimes with my job and always getting hounded to do certain things I am not the coolest cat either.
That being said, his 1971 card is among my all time favorites.
Sucks you couldn't get him to sign, sucks even worse he was so rude to you. It doesn't sound like it was an uncommon occurance, as you had multiple unpleasant run ins with him.
Munson's last thought?
"Damn, I should have given more autographs."
more likely...
"Oh $hit."
Of course Munson does not belong in the Hall based on his stats, but even as a young Red Sox fan back in the 70's I admired his style of play. He is a memorable part of those "Bronx Zoo" era Yankee teams, and it was sad to see his career cut short.
<< <i> Like many Yankee players he is overrated and does not belong in the hall. >>
LOL
That being the case, Munson is not a HOFer.
Despite what the YES network teaches us, unfortunate death does not turn every Yankee into a hero or HOF. And if that sounds mean, sorry but it's true. He wasn't that great. By many accounts, he was bitter and jealous of Fisk, and created as much disfunction in the club house as the captain as anyone else on the team.
And I think it's Yankee arrogance to suggest he belongs in the hall of fame. I know this isn't a Yankee/Red Sox discussion, but it is a good example of you Yankee guys going too far trying to force your opinions on the world of baseball. Honestly, had he retired in 1979 and not died, the question of whether or not he belongs in the HOF would never have come up.
<< <i> Honestly, had he retired in 1979 and not died, the question of whether or not he belongs in the HOF would never have come up. >>
Couldn't put it better myself.
Look at his numbers prior to 79, and you do indeed find a player whose numbers were diminishing.
.308, .297, .288 (1977, 78, 79) batting averages.
18, 6, 3 same years, home runs.
100, 71, 39 RBIs.
He was a solid player, but had he played on any other team besides the yankees, and his name would never even be brought up for HoF contention.
Apparently voters feel the same.
<< <i> I know this isn't a Yankee/Red Sox discussion, but it is a good example of you Yankee guys going too far trying to force your opinions on the world of baseball. Honestly, had he retired in 1979 and not died, the question of whether or not he belongs in the HOF would never have come up. >>
um...whatever...i started this thread to learn more about the guy....if you want to start a pi$$ing contest that nobody can win....go start another thread about the yanks/red sox feud please....
Thanks
Loth
When you talk about Munson, and his supporters come rolling in with HOF claims, this is what you get. It's an indication of his significance in Yankee baseball, particular as it relates to the Sox. It's one of the things that makes him interesting, as he's one of the things that makes the Red Sox/Yankees interesting.
So hopefully rather than dismiss the other side, and make ludicris statements like
I see he had awesome stats in your sig....I dont care if he only played 10 years....he deserves to be in THE HALL
You'll appreciate that the other side of the argument is an equal part of the answer to your question.
Anyways, I'll go pi$$ on the other thread now.
Same with Jeter, who's the most overrated player in the league.
<< <i>No offense Loth, but .......... >>
But nothing...why should i listen to you anyway?? your the biggest hypocrite ever.....why do you have a mickey mantle icon and you hate the Yankees...or dislike there HOF'ers....are you baised against the guy cause you hate yankees??? GO PI$$ on the other thread like you said......the tone specifically stating that THOSE YANKEES GUYS sounded as if YOU didnt want to hear what THEY had to say....your the one who is deaf my friend....
thanks
lothar
just not that great an aviator.
I suppose yes I am still "mad at" him for being selfish especially during the season.
1967 Topps baseball wantlists (any condition) welcome. #14 ATF 1967 set. Yet another collector like skylaneflyer, gimel1 who made it to the completion of 1967 only to need the money more than the company of 609 close friends.
Looking for 1967 Mets, yankees, and 1968 Tigers in PSA 7 and Venezuelan Norm Cash stuff
<< <i>Interesting thread guys.. How did he die? (pardon my baseball ignorance) >>
Plane crash during the '79 season
I breezed through these posts and was somewhat astounded. Some guy (Moose) has so much stuff to say that I can't remember whether I like it or not. Then, of course, their was a pile of people who just want to reply by bashing anyone associated with the Yankees....or have some kind of unsolicited opinion about the HOF.
Thurman was an old time player on the cusp of the modern era. He fought with his owner and teams members......without regard to his "image." He wanted to win. All he did was play his ass off, and return confrontation to anyone who did not share his desire to win. He told Steinbrener where to get off if he was blowing his hole, he told Reggie Jackson to shut his big mouth when it was affecting the team, he managed the pitching staff as well as Yogi Berra or Bill Dickey ever did. He put up good numbers. He won rings. He was not easy to deal with...media, fans or players. All he thought he was supposed to do was play baseball and win games....everything else was a distraction.
He didn't give 2 shoots about Fisk or anybody else. He was "The Captain" of the Yankees. He took it to heart. He challenged his team to win. Tragically, his life was ended when he crashed his small plane. Had his career continued past this unfortunate demise, he may have had "stats" similar to a Fisk or Bench. But he died. End of story. Regards.
Fisk-Munson
Ignore the comment about Munson being jealous of Fisk though, since obviously DirtyHarry knows more about the subject than the HOF writer.
"How bad was it with Munson? One day, Yankees PR Director Marty Appell included in the media notes all the categories in which Munson led AL catchers. He also put that Munson was second among AL catchers in assists. That day, Yankees pitchers struck out seven batters. On every one, Munson dropped the ball, threw it to first for the assist, then gestured toward the press box."
<< <i>Here's a nice story about Fisk and Munson written by Peter Gammons.
Fisk-Munson
Ignore the comment about Munson being jealous of Fisk though, since obviously DirtyHarry knows more about the subject than the HOF writer. >>
Gammons would be more suited to a gossip column than his current "baseball expert" role. The guy looks and sounds smart, but really is just starting to understand the game after reading Neyer's articles the last couple of years.
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's a nice story about Fisk and Munson written by Peter Gammons.
Fisk-Munson
Ignore the comment about Munson being jealous of Fisk though, since obviously DirtyHarry knows more about the subject than the HOF writer. >>
Gammons would be more suited to a gossip column than his current "baseball expert" role. The guy looks and sounds smart, but really is just starting to understand the game after reading Neyer's articles the last couple of years. >>
Spoken like a true ignoramus.
Yeah, Gammons doesn't know baseball. He's just starting to understand the game?
Good god.
Gammons would be more suited to a gossip column than his current "baseball expert" role. The guy looks and sounds smart, but really is just starting to understand the game after reading Neyer's articles the last couple of years.
Sometimes it's so easy to tell which of you actually watch baseball, understand baseball, appreciate baseball etc and those of you who watch Sportscenter, see a player hit a 2 run homer and immediately think "that's six more points for my fantasy team!".
I admit, I agree with your first sentence. He's given far too much credit as the know-it-all in baseball regarding trades, rumors, gossip etc these days. Of course, most of that is ESPN marketing him in that role. But as a baseball historian, baseball observer and baseball writer over the last 30 years, no one comes close to Gammons. If you don't agree, go back and read some of his stuff from the 70s when he was a beat sports writer. He could capture the essense of a game and communicate that to his readers like no other and also knew and understood the Boston/New York rivalry better than any other writer in the 70s.
<< <i>Gammons would be more suited to a gossip column than his current "baseball expert" role. The guy looks and sounds smart, but really is just starting to understand the game after reading Neyer's articles the last couple of years.
Sometimes it's so easy to tell which of you actually watch baseball, understand baseball, appreciate baseball etc and those of you who watch Sportscenter, see a player hit a 2 run homer and immediately think "that's six more points for my fantasy team!".
I admit, I agree with your first sentence. He's given far too much credit as the know-it-all in baseball regarding trades, rumors, gossip etc these days. Of course, most of that is ESPN marketing him in that role. But as a baseball historian, baseball observer and baseball writer over the last 30 years, no one comes close to Gammons. If you don't agree, go back and read some of his stuff from the 70s when he was a beat sports writer. He could capture the essense of a game and communicate that to his readers like no other and also knew and understood the Boston/New York rivalry better than any other writer in the 70s. >>
His column (which was linked) was done from a Boston/New England point of view, and that was the gist of most of the column. Taking facts and embellishing them with his own opinion of the Boston/Yankee rivalry, makes for great reading if you are a New Englander and need to add some fuel to the hatered........
Munson was as much about intangibles as anything else. He broke in and won the Rookie of the Year, then was the key player on the Yankee teams of the early 1970s that didn't do much winning. Munson was a super hard-nosed guy - as a kid, his father used to pitch him balls in the dirt and force him to block them with his body, with no pads. He was a gritty guy who only knew one way to play.
In comparison to others of the early 70s, Munson's numbers were excellent. He had three consecutive 100-RBI seasons, won the 1976 American League MVP, and had excellent postseason numbers. When he signed his second Yankee contract (1976?), Steinbrenner promised him that he would always be the highest-paid Yankee - only to have his "record" broken, over and over again, as Steinbrenner opened his pocketbook to the likes of Andy Messersmith, Don Gullett, Reggie Jackson, and Catfish Hunter.
While he was beloved by his teammates, there were several other times in his career that Munson perceived he was being slighted - by the press and by others in baseball. In the press conference at the end of the 1976 World Series, when Munson hit .529, Sparky Anderson was asked about the stellar play of the two catchers in the series - Munson and Bench. Anderson followed with a comment essentially stating that, while Munson was a good catcher, the two players' names didn't belong in the same sentence. Munson felt that this question could have been handled more diplomatically, and he never forgave Anderson for it.
Similarly, upon signing with the Yankees, Reggie Jackson was quoted in Sport magazine as comparing the Yankees to a cool drink. Jackson said that he was the straw that stirred the drink, and that Munson could only stir it bad. It took a few years for the two players to reconcile over this comment.
Munson was one of the greatest clutch hitters and postseason performers of the 1970s. He constantly played hurt, and his bad knees resulted in an ill-fated stint as a right fielder for a while in 1979. He was also an excellent defensive catcher, had a cannon for a throwing arm, and was without equal at handling a pitching staff. It's been said that Ron Guidry actually considered retiring after Munson died, because he couldn't imagine having to throw to any other catcher.
He was devoted to his family, and his homesickness led him to get his private pilot's license. He loved to fly, and would often go to his home in Ohio on days off during the season. Unfortunately, he was also infatuated with airplanes, and in the summer of 1979 purchased a pretty powerful jet. Speculation is that he was overmatched by the plane he was showing off to his friends that day in August, and after a series of practice takeoffs and landings, he came in too fast, lost control of the plane, and crashed it into the woods. His two passengers survived, Munson was unconscious and trapped in the wreckage, and died before he could be extracted from the plane. For those who don't know, Munson's locker at Yankee Stadium remains the way it was in 1979, with his uniform still hanging in it.
Those in this thread that have stated that Munson was on the downside of his career when he died are probably right. His knees were making it difficult to play his position, and while his batting average remained strong, his power numbers declined from 18 home runs to 6 between 1977 and 78. After 97 games in 1979, he had just three home runs. His lifetime batting average was .292, an excellent number for the era. In an age when a .340 average and 50 home runs is normal, it's sometimes tough to remember that .280 with 20 home runs was once the standard for many baseball stars.
Munson was tired of playing in New York, and was likely to ask for a trade to Cleveland at the end of the 1979 season, so he could be closer to his family. So the issue of him finishing his career in New York and making the Hall is moot anyway.
In terms of where he stood in the big picture: Munson in his prime was better than Fisk but not as good as Bench. Based on the direction his career was heading when he was killed, Munson would likely have fallen below Bench, Fisk, and probably Gary Carter in terms of overall numbers. I think he would have been a DH by 1981.
As for whether he would have made the Hall, that's a tough question. Certainly there has been a precedent set for Hall induction after a tragic accident (Clemente), and there has also been a precedent set for Hall induction after career-ending injury (Puckett). However, Munson did not talk to the press, so he did not have many friends among sportswriters. His surly disposition surely would have weighed against him,
There are fourteen catchers in the Hall of Fame. The best of them - Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane - are among the best players of all-time. Josh Gibson certainly belongs as well. The "second tier" includes Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, and Bill Dickey. But when you look at the remaining catchers in the Hall - Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, Rick Ferrell, Gabby Hartnett, Ernie Lombardi, and Ray Schalk - it's tough not to see Thurm in that group, even considering his untimely death.
-Al
As far as knuckleheads such as dgbaseball and axtell - you are obviously not expert on Munson and rely on some far-fetched negativism from a Peter Gammons article to spin your own views.
But I'm partial to the fugue.
in the hall.
Lothar
<< <i>Novocent - that was a great, factual, insightful post. A true outline of Munson with an unbiased view.
As far as knuckleheads such as dgbaseball and axtell - you are obviously not expert on Munson and rely on some far-fetched negativism from a Peter Gammons article to spin your own views.
Unlike you, I don't rely on anyone other than myself to make my own insights. I didn't need Gammons (or anyone else, thank you) to come to the conclusion that Munson doesn't belong in the hall. A good career does not a hall of famer make.
What do I need to be an expert on Munson, in order to determine if he should be in the hall? I have all I need at baseball-reference.com, I don't need some nitwit saying 'he had a fantastic postseason batting average!' or 'he was the first yankee captain in X amount of years!'
Gammons painted a picture of Munson that doesn't appear to be that far-fetched. How many athletes, living in the shadow of a much bigger, and better ahtlete, have turned out to be the rude and selfish player?
I'd like you to read some posts about what I posted about Munson - looking solely at his numbers - you don't need a degree to see he's not HoF worthy, no matter how many yankees lovers say otherwise.
How about next time you just look in the baseball encyclopedia.
Actually asked, as the title suggests, if anyone's "got anything to say about"?
Then enjoy the responses.
I love how every conversation with Yankee fans is reduced to this.
"Yankee haters beeping off at the mouth"
"why should i listen to you anyway?? your the biggest hypocrite ever"
"are you baised against the guy cause you hate yankees"
etc
God forbid I didn't show up to the Munson ball washing party. Please forgive me.
Don't ask for opinions if you don't want to hear them, or are unwilling to try and understand them just because you don't agree.
My father-in-law played against Munson many times in college. Well, Munson played and my FIL mostly rode the bench. But he told me stories about the few time he came to bat with Munson behind the plate and the things Munson would say and do to distract the hitter. One game in particular...
Oh wait, forget it. This story doesn't end up with "Thurman for the HOF!". It's not important.
SAY WHAT NOW?
Lothar, you remind me of the Brick Tamland in Anchorman. WHY ARE WE YELLING? LOUD NOISES!
<< <i>Say what now? >>
do i have to re-type it???
Oh, I'm Dave, by the way. Since you asked. I sell cards and I buy cards. I incorporated as a dealer last year and its going pretty well so far, although I tend to buy more than I sell and have a hard time selling anything that I like, which is all I want to buy. You see the dilemma I'm sure. I love the Red Sox, season ticket holder in fact. I don't like the Yankees much though. Also a big Bruins and hockey fan in general, love the Pats, and not too big on basketball as of late. I'm a leo, married, with 2 kids. My favorite color is red. It used to be green, but I switched it to red.