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German word question

secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
in World & Ancient Coins Forum
What does "min. ber." mean?

The sentence is "Fleckige Patina, PP min. ber."

I understand the patina and polierte platte part but the last two words I don't understand.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)

Comments

  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭
    I'm sure Udo and others can answer more completely, but "ber." is short for "berieben" (sp) which means rubbed or abraded...usually (but not exclusively) used on Proofs. "min" is minimal, PP is Proof (Polierte Platte) "Fleckige" would mean spots or spotty (toning).

    Hope this helps. German speaking members, please don't be too hard on my translation image - Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    rubbed or abraded - in the sense of hairlines? or an impaired proof that was in circulation?
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭


    << <i>rubbed or abraded - in the sense of hairlines? or an impaired proof that was in circulation? >>



    I believe it's a term used to describe general mishandling, rather than circulation. A lightly circulated Proof would more likely be described as "fast st aus pp." (almost Unc. Proof). Hairlines are normally specifically noted as "haarlinie" (sp) but I wouldn't rule out hairlines on a coin described as having berieben. It is certainly a Proof with some degree of impairment. - Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    Thanks. My seven years of studing German in high school and college didn't get me very far when it comes to numismatics image
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • UdoUdo Posts: 984 ✭✭


    << <i>I'm sure Udo and others can answer more completely, but "ber." is short for "berieben" (sp) which means rubbed or abraded...usually (but not exclusively) used on Proofs. "min" is minimal, PP is Proof (Polierte Platte) "Fleckige" would mean spots or spotty (toning).

    Hope this helps. German speaking members, please don't be too hard on my translation image - Preussen >>



    You've translated well, Steve image

    "Berieben" is stated when a coin shows hairlines as a result of cleaning. So on that coin you'll see some hairlines, visible to the naked eye.
    Hairlines from die-polishing are called "Abziehspuren" and are usually not often stated.
    imageimage
  • MSD61MSD61 Posts: 3,382 ✭
    Looks like I'm too late for this thread the questions have been answered.image
    Omnicoin
  • Silvereagle82Silvereagle82 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭
    I have another word description question:

    "Min. gewell, St"

    "Kl. RF, min. gewellt, fast St"
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    So in the case of a proof (PP), a description of "min. ber." probably means some light hairlines, and "ber." probably means more hairlines.

    thanks for the help, gentlemen. image
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    "Min. gewell, St"
    "Kl. RF, min. gewellt, fast St"

    Not sure what "gewell" means, but "Kl. RF" probably means "kleine randfeler," which means some damage to the rim (most likely a little ding on the rim). "St" is stempelglanz, or uncirculated, and "fast St" means "almost uncirculated."

    There was a thread a few weeks ago on comparing German grading... stempelglanz means probably a coin higher than MS 60, maybe 62-63+. I would guess that "fast stempelglanz" means something close to 60 or 61, or a really choice piece with just a little bit of wear.

    I'll let those in the know respond more fully.
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • UdoUdo Posts: 984 ✭✭
    secondrepublic is correct on Kl.Rf.

    Im wondering where you found all those terms? "Gewellt" means "ondulated" image

    Here is an extreme example of "ondulated" coins, those were 1 Mark coins that were devaluated and processed to cuff links:

    image
    imageimage
  • UdoUdo Posts: 984 ✭✭
    Oh, and here is the thread which secondrepublic mentioned image
    imageimage
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Im wondering where you found all those terms? "Gewellt" means "ondulated" ] >>



    Udo, Is that word "undulated," defined as "To give a wavelike appearance or form to." ? Geez, I thought the German word was bad enough, but I had to look up the English one image. I've seen "gewellt" before, but I had no idea what it meant. - Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • UdoUdo Posts: 984 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Im wondering where you found all those terms? "Gewellt" means "ondulated" ] >>



    Udo, Is that word "undulated," defined as "To give a wavelike appearance or form to." ? Geez, I thought the German word was bad enough, but I had to look up the English one image. I've seen "gewellt" before, but I had no idea what it meant. - Preussen >>



    Yes, Steve that descibes it exactly. image

    Ondulated or undulated, some kind of strange words that were only known to women and their hairdressers before. image
    imageimage
  • Silvereagle82Silvereagle82 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭


    << <i>secondrepublic is correct on Kl.Rf.

    Im wondering where you found all those terms? "Gewellt" means "ondulated" image
    >>



    Udo,

    They are both descriptions of gold coins at a German auction house. Gewellt may imply "wavy"???
  • UdoUdo Posts: 984 ✭✭
    Yes, Silvereagle82 that's it. "Wavy" fits also.
    imageimage
  • Silvereagle82Silvereagle82 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭
    I need some help with these coin descriptions:

    Selten.

    Äußerst selten

    Vs. Schrötlingsfehler

    Rs. minimal justiert

    Kleiner Randfehler

    Etwas fleckig

    Vs. Stempelbruch

    Leichte Bugspur
  • UdoUdo Posts: 984 ✭✭
    Selten.= rare, scarce

    Äußerst selten= extremely rare

    Vs. Schrötlingsfehler= obverse planchet flaw

    Rs. minimal justiert= reverse minimal adjusted

    Kleiner Randfehler= small rim nick

    Etwas fleckig= a little splotchy

    Vs. Stempelbruch= obverse die crack

    Leichte Bugspur= image Never heard of that, must do a research


    Vs.= abbreviation for obverse

    Rs.= abbreviation for reverse
    imageimage
  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 3,019 ✭✭✭✭
    My list of german translations (collected from this forum and a german to english website!):

    Altgeglättet - ?
    bearbeitet – tooled
    Fassungsspuren – Removed from bezel or jewelery
    Fast - nearly
    Felder – fields
    Geglättet - polished
    gewellt – wavy
    gutes - good
    Henkelspur – Mount removed
    Justiert – calibration marks
    kleine – slightly
    knapp – barely
    Kratzer - scratch
    leicht – light
    leichte – slight
    Markanter – striking; prominent
    rand – marginally
    Randfehler – Rim/edge defect
    schöne - beauty
    Schrötlingsfehler - Planchet (flan) flaw
    Übliche - common
    unsauberer - uncleaned
    vorzüglich - excellent
    winzige - trace
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