Does PSA do "population" control
PSAJIM
Posts: 24
I have a very large high grade raw collection from the 1950's and 1960's. Over about the last year I began submitting cards to PSA and, like most people I presume, am sometimes happy with the grades and other times I am very disgusted. My question is simple....do you think the graders at PSA are tougher on certain issues when it becomes hot on ebay or perhaps to retain a stronghold on PSA 9's in the population report.......I have a few experiences that have led me to ask this question.
1950's Topps commons in PSA 9 sell for premiums of SMR on ebay.....I have submitted or had my friends submit about 1000 nice commons from the 1950's over the last year. Most of the time, out of about 100 cards say from 1957 topps, I will get about 5-6 PSA 9's and the rest PSA 7's and 8's. I usually have at least ten cards from that group that I think are undergraded. I took ten high end PSA 8's and broke them out, resubmitted them through a friend, got four more PSA 9's, five PSA 8's and one PSA 7......what gives??? This scenario has happed to me at least 7 or 8 times over the last year. Why didnt I get the PSA 9 the first time? Why should I have to pay twice? I feel like if I sold the card in a PSA 8, when it is actually the quality of PSA 9, I would be leaving quite a bit of money on the table.
I have done a ton of research on PSA and GAI and SGC over the last couple of years and I believe the market has embraced all three, but what is clear is people are willing to pay more for cards in PSA holders, specificly for commons. I think I would rank based solely on prices realized PSA, SGC, GAI.
I respect PSA and they obviously they have a firm grip on market share. When you search ebay, on any given week you will find over 20,000 items listed for PSA, approximately 2500 items for GAI, and approximately 1500 items for SGC. That is clearly market dominance based on cleaver marketing, being the first company on the scene, and I'm sure a few other things that people who are in the know are privy too. All of that is great! I just want to know why I cant get a freakin PSA 9 the first time!!!
Thanks Guys! Opinions Welcome.
Jim
1950's Topps commons in PSA 9 sell for premiums of SMR on ebay.....I have submitted or had my friends submit about 1000 nice commons from the 1950's over the last year. Most of the time, out of about 100 cards say from 1957 topps, I will get about 5-6 PSA 9's and the rest PSA 7's and 8's. I usually have at least ten cards from that group that I think are undergraded. I took ten high end PSA 8's and broke them out, resubmitted them through a friend, got four more PSA 9's, five PSA 8's and one PSA 7......what gives??? This scenario has happed to me at least 7 or 8 times over the last year. Why didnt I get the PSA 9 the first time? Why should I have to pay twice? I feel like if I sold the card in a PSA 8, when it is actually the quality of PSA 9, I would be leaving quite a bit of money on the table.
I have done a ton of research on PSA and GAI and SGC over the last couple of years and I believe the market has embraced all three, but what is clear is people are willing to pay more for cards in PSA holders, specificly for commons. I think I would rank based solely on prices realized PSA, SGC, GAI.
I respect PSA and they obviously they have a firm grip on market share. When you search ebay, on any given week you will find over 20,000 items listed for PSA, approximately 2500 items for GAI, and approximately 1500 items for SGC. That is clearly market dominance based on cleaver marketing, being the first company on the scene, and I'm sure a few other things that people who are in the know are privy too. All of that is great! I just want to know why I cant get a freakin PSA 9 the first time!!!
Thanks Guys! Opinions Welcome.
Jim
0
Comments
There is no such thing as a card that's a 9, or an 8, or a 10, until the card is slabbed. You're working under the faulty assumption that before a card is slabbed it can be said to 'belong' in a certain holder. Nonsense. Instead, a card has equity in two, and sometimes, three, different grades. A card may have a 25% chance of being graded a 9, an 80% chance of being graded an 8, and a 5% chance of being graded a 10.
You have a human being grading the card, which means the process must be subjective. There's no way around it. You could give anyone, anywhere 100 nmt-mt cards, tell them to grade them, and they would not give those cards the exact same grades the second time that they gave them the first time. It's simply impossible.
I have wondered these sentiments myself and the best anwers I can oblige is pretty simple. Human beings are grading the cards. Not only that different human beings. Even it was only one person grading all cards you would still get different grades. Think about it, Grader X grades 15 '85 Donruss cards from a factory set and then his next task is 15 '71 topps cards. I bet grades would vary if it the other way around or if he graded 15 '54 bowmans before the '85's or 71's. It is human variances and absolutely subjective. The difference in grading companies comes down to giving truly honest grades at the moment, great training, and remembering that if you are a grader you are a "keeper of the hobby". Other side of the coin is that folks have resubmitted 9's hoping for 10's and have gotten 7 and 8's back. I really think that "human opinion" factor is the answer.
Damian
" I usually have at least ten cards from that group that I think are undergraded. I took ten high end PSA 8's and broke them out, resubmitted them through a friend, got four more PSA 9's, five PSA 8's and one PSA 7......what gives??? This scenario has happed to me at least 7 or 8 times over the last year. Why didnt I get the PSA 9 the first time? "
You guys really didn't answer his above question. 1) on the population control--- the answer is--NO. PSA has no idea how many(PSA)cards exist for each player. All it will tell you is how many times they have graded that particular card and what grade it received. It could have been the same card all 800 times.
Based on a few of the responses i have seen tonight on this, since it is sooo objective, I guess all i have to do is just keep sending in the same cards until i get all 10's. Since my 8's are really 10's in a 9 holder
We'll all just have to face the fact that the volume of cards that PSA grades on a daily basis is just too large for them to always get it right, while the differing sensibilities from grader to grader can vary enough for one grader to give a card an 8 while another will grade it as a 9. I for one, have never cracked a card in a PSA card to resubmit it in the hopes of getting a higher grade upon further review, but I can say I have been happy with nearly all the grades I have received from PSA.
Until a machine/software/sensor devices is/are invented that take human error/element completely out of the grading process, there will always be disputes as to what grade a particular card SHOULD have received as opposed to the grade it actually received. If you think your card may have been slighted, just crack it out, bite the bullet and pay the $$$, and resubmit. At this point, that is the only option available presently.
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Based on a few of the responses i have seen tonight on this, since it is sooo objective, I guess all i have to do is just keep sending in the same cards until i get all 10's. Since my 8's are really 10's in a 9 holder
If you're referring to my post this is misrepresentation of what I said. Some 8's have equity in a 10 grade. Some have none in a 10 grade, but a substantial amount in a 7 grade. There is no such thing as 'the proper grade' for each card, which is why cards will come back in different holders if you continue to resubmit them.
Am I the only one here who's cracked the same card more than five times? I mean seriously, I'm curious. Because when I read the responses to these types of questions I'm struck by the fact that while most of us casually toss around the idea of a 'high end 8', or a 'low end 9', it never sound like anybody takes advantage of these discrepencies.
<< <i>I guess all i have to do is just keep sending in the same cards until i get all 10's. Since my 8's are really 10's in a 9 holder >>
Right. Sarcasm aside I don't think you are far off. An 8 today could well be a 10 tomorrow. It really can. And I am not talking an 8 that was lucky to be an 8, which could be a 6 tomorrow. This is a very subjective thing and when you think you have a "high end" 8 or 9, barring any surface wrinkle that card has a chance of hitting the higher grade. It's that simple.
As far as the graders not knowing what card they are grading.... They may not know the pop, but they know that they are looking at a high $$ card asa opposed to a common. Out of a vending box I busted recently I sent in about 70 cards, everyone was graded except THE star rookie from the set. PSA said EVID of TRIMMING. What a joke! Why that card? It is the same exact size as the other 69 I submitted but it got bonged. They obviously scrutinized it more. It is a VERY subjective art and the people looking at our cards know what they are looking at. They may not know the pop., but they will not look at a 1986 Fleer Manute Bol nearly as har as they look at a 1986 MJ. And thats the fact Jack.
My Auctions
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<< <i>I guess all i have to do is just keep sending in the same cards until i get all 10's. Since my 8's are really 10's in a 9 holder >>
Right. Sarcasm aside I don't think you are far off. An 8 today could well be a 10 tomorrow. It really can. And I am not talking an 8 that was lucky to be an 8, which could be a 6 tomorrow. This is a very subjective thing and when you think you have a "high end" 8 or 9, barring any surface wrinkle that card has a chance of hitting the higher grade. It's that simple.
As far as the graders not knowing what card they are grading.... They may not know the pop, but they know that they are looking at a high $$ card asa opposed to a common. Out of a vending box I busted recently I sent in about 70 cards, everyone was graded except THE star rookie from the set. PSA said EVID of TRIMMING. What a joke! Why that card? It is the same exact size as the other 69 I submitted but it got bonged. They obviously scrutinized it more. It is a VERY subjective art and the people looking at our cards know what they are looking at. They may not know the pop., but they will not look at a 1986 Fleer Manute Bol nearly as har as they look at a 1986 MJ. And thats the fact Jack. >>
What set was it?
<< <i>You have a human being grading the card, which means the process must be subjective. There's no way around it. You could give anyone, anywhere 100 nmt-mt cards, tell them to grade them, and they would not give those cards the exact same grades the second time that they gave them the first time. It's simply impossible. >>
I am not sure how many graders they have but when they are grading 250 card submissions in 3 days I doubt there is too much invoved? I look at about 20 cards under a loupe and I am dizzy and ready to start watching reruns of Sanford and son! I would think its more of a assembly line type set up were one person just sits there with a black light and runs through a submission and then goes through the same submission in 2 days? Any card that differed from before will be pulled and graded again? Are you telling me that a person sits and measures front and back centering loupes all the corners front and back the loupes the edges front and back and then goes over the surface front and back, takes notes and then redoes the process in a day or 2 on a 1978 Rick Burleson card?????? If thats was the case it would take months to get your cards back! Look at the 1000's of cards they are getting from 4sc and dsl alone.... It should take a month to properly grade a 300 card submission and that doesn't include slabbing,labels,verification,packing up and shipping! This is the reason for fluctuation in grades! There is no way an 8 turns into a 10 if the above process is done......no way! I guess the grader that graded THIS measured the centering?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Late 60's and early to mid 70's non-sports
Buried somewhere deep in the archives is a thread from a former psa grader who basically said that you could find undergraded cards - especially lesser value cards - because the graders have tight deadlines and, due to the buyback policy, will err on the low side versus the high side. He said it was tougher to find undergraded high dollar star cards because they take the time to get them right.
Of course, it's common knowledge now that cards can be resubmitted for bump ups. But, from what he said, you want the graders to examine the cards more closely - not the other way around.
(I wish I could find that thread, but for some reason it never shows up from a search of the archives. I found it once when I was new to all this, but it wasn't easy. I basically had to find a post that linked to it. The poster's user name was doc.)