Why do I have PSA grade my cards.....this is why...

KansasJayhawk

Here is a nice example of GAI grading a (what I think is) reproduction as an original.....

What an original 32 Ruth Caramel looks like

GAI graded reproduction

Look at the upper right corner on each card, the original had no rounded red border...I believe it is a reproduction card...can anyone verify if a 32 caramel set was ever reproduced by anyone?

All companies make mistakes, but this is on a higher profile card.

ZodiacMindwarp

The rounded corner looks like paper loss to me.

bobsbbcards

<< <i>The rounded corner looks like paper loss to me. >>


Looks like paper loss to me too.

Onlypsahockey

The one in the CSA holder looks like the repro to me!

JMO, Bob

Mopar70

Hi guys, Both of these cards I believe are fakes, The one in the CSA I (think) is fake, and it even looks trimmed on the right side..The one in the GAI holder is for sure a fake, noted by the rounded top corner..I just sold a 110% authentic Babe Ruth US Caramel about a week ago, it was graded by PSA and got a 5..Heres the link to my auction..

My US Caramel Babe Ruth

Steve

Brian48

Yeah, I have noted the round corner towards the top. And like everyone else, it looks like paper loss to me as well.

Stingray

I am not fimiliar with the carmel cards, but IMO it looks like the rounded red part of the card is too perfect to be paperloss. What characteristics distinguish a fake from a real card?


Stingray

Fletch1750

As I have said before GAI is a third rate show. But I do not think they are grading reprints.............. Yet.

Stone193

<< <i>As I have said before GAI is a third rate show. But I do not think they are grading reprints.............. Yet. >>


Fletch
I know that people have been reporting that GAI is "dealer friendly" and the half grade bumps purportedly abound - is that why you think it's third rate?

mike

BigtimeBowmanfan

Authentification wise i believe GAI is fine I use them for all of my own cards. On the other hand cards i intend to sell will alway's go to PSA. This is for nothing other than monetary reasons. I can't stand dealing with there cust. service and i believe they have been anything but honest about the issue's that crop up from time to time. The other thing that really bothers me is the childish way they deal with the whole GAI/SGC crossover buisness. It is nothing more than taking your $ by assigning the evidence of trimming tag to every GAI slab that comes in. I have tried 10 or so times to sub some of them through my brother in law and and always they came back with the ev trim tag. Than we cracked them out and what do you know....... every one grade's. Give me a break, i mean if thats the case just tell us not to sub. them because you don't feel there good . But stop just taking our $'s. I have done the cross with some T cards to SGC and it was never a problem. (GAI that is .)

Just my 2 cents for what there worth.

stevek

Interesting that the seller suddenly switched his auctions to bidders ID kept private as though maybe he was anticipating some of the bidders receiving warning e-mails from other ebayers.

Skinpinch

That CSA one is fake. The GAI holders look like they may have been compromised...lower right edge on the Caramel. Left edge on the Goudey.

FYS

<< <i>Here is a nice example of GAI grading a (what I think is) reproduction as an original.....

What an original 32 Ruth Caramel looks like

GAI graded reproduction

Look at the upper right corner on each card, the original had no rounded red border...I believe it is a reproduction card...can anyone verify if a 32 caramel set was ever reproduced by anyone?

All companies make mistakes, but this is on a higher profile card. >>



Looks like you read the VBCF.

GAI = the people that were the best PSA ever had to offer. It amazes me that anybody who likes PSA can bash GAI.

As far as recent PSA problems from memory noted on this board:

1. T206 Honus Wagner, that really is not a Honus Wagner.
2. T206 labeled with stray line and there is no stray line.
3. Goudey card labeled as S&S
4. 61 Mays All Star labeled as Mantle.

Stingray

FYS,

Are you talking about the Gretzky Wagner, I have read that there has been rumors that the card is not real?


Stingray

BigtimeBowmanfan

I believe that most people in the know think or swear that it is trimmed. The subject has come up on the vintage boards by peop;e who either owned the card or handled it pre slab. From what they say is that it was a brilliant marketing strategy. But you will never see the card switched to SGC for this reason.

I personally have know idea but the one's who talk about it seem to be pretty straight shooters and well respected.

2dueces

I will not start any rumors about a certain card. But there have been law suits threatened by some very influencial people if photos of this cards are ever posted in a pre graded condition. Not sure what card that could be though. Ahem

BigtimeBowmanfan

Ihave heard the same thing mentioned a few time's. But how could someone sue if a previous owner posted pics ?

FYS

<< <i>FYS,

Are you talking about the Gretzky Wagner, I have read that there has been rumors that the card is not real?


Stingray >>



Stingray, no not talking about the trimmed Wager. Talking about this one.

KansasJayhawk

FYS,
As stated in my post ALL companies make mistakes....PSA included, and ALL of them will in the future, I was not trying to "bash". In looking more closely at the scan (which is not that great) it may be paper loss (I have emailed the seller to verify)....perhaps just coincidence that it is such a well rounded paper loss at one corner.

FYS

<< <i>FYS,
As stated in my post ALL companies make mistakes....PSA included, and ALL of them will in the future, I was not trying to "bash". In looking more closely at the scan (which is not that great) it may be paper loss (I have emailed the seller to verify)....perhaps just coincidence that it is such a well rounded paper loss at one corner. >>



You actually said, "All companies make mistakes, but this is on a higher profile card." Meaning, PSA makes mistakes, but not on such a high profile card. I think the T206 Wagner is a bit more high profile than the Ruth.

Then you also stated, "Here is a nice example of GAI grading."

I probably would not have even said anything if I did not think you stole the question in the first place from the VBCF and really had no idea of your own on whether or not it was fake. That combined with the slight jab at GAI, when you are a PSA consumer. It boggles my mind that PSA consumers jab GAI. GAI is litterally the people that made PSA. PSA is not better without them. To say GAI sucks is saying that PSA has always sucked and now they suck ever more.

stevek

That Wagner card was simply a labeling error, not an authentication or grading error. There's a big reason PSA graded cards sell for more money than similarly graded GAI cards, and if anyone here doesn't understand these reasons by now, then they may not really want to understand them. GAI isn't a new company anymore - if they were equivalent or better than PSA, the word would have gotten around by now, then their slabs would be selling for equal or greater value as the PSA slabs. SGC slabs are approaching the value of PSA slabs because the word has gotten around that SGC is a formidable competitor to PSA. In my view, GAI is a competitor to PSA but not a formidable competitor. Frankly, I would not buy a GAI slabbed card because I have seen too many in which the cards appear trimmed. Notice I do not say this about SGC slabbed cards. I call 'em as I see 'em and the way the market value is out there is with PSA. SGC and GAI slabs...most others are seeing it the exact same way.

ndleo

The Gretzky Wagner/trimmed story came up with full details several years ago. A high profile dealer from WI (not Larry Fritsch) provided the evidence.

Based on what he provided, I believe that the Wagner was trimmed prior to being slabbed. However this dealer is disliked by many people, so there are many people who disagree.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me because I usually don't bid on cards that cost more than a house.

calleocho

several houses

cardaholic

I'm new here, so please forgive my ignorance. The points raised above about PSA's errors or misgrades on major cards, are they known to be true or just rumors and "urban legend" kind of things? The Gretzky-McNall T206 Wagner being doctored or fake would have been national news even outside the hobby, I would think, but this is the first I have heard about it. Also, I thought people became members here because we use PSA? It must be more of a general melting pot for the hobby, because some of us don't like PSA at all and tout other services. I'm learning more, the more posts I read here!

Is CSA a reputable grader, since it is being used for comparison? If so, why did the NM-MT Ruth sell for only $2,000 when Sports Market Report says it is worth $18,500? So far PSA and SGC look like the most highly regarded graders to me, but if I knew my 1932 Babe Ruth would sell for thousands more in a GAI holder, I would be stupid not to send it to GAI, despite my personal preference.

RonBurgundy

This is the truest statement on this thread:

GAI = the people that were the best PSA ever had to offer. It amazes me that anybody who likes PSA can bash GAI.

DaBigHurt

<< <i>This is the truest statement on this thread:

GAI = the people that were the best PSA ever had to offer. It amazes me that anybody who likes PSA can bash GAI. >>



Because even middle-aged men can be fanboys.

dgbaseball

Can we all please just put this statement to bed:

GAI = the people that were the best PSA ever had to offer.

That's all Danny Fisher and the rest at their booth kept spewing the first (and last) time I ever submitted cards to them. To believe that the largest company, with the best reputation and most respect and trust in the industry (a multi-million dollar industry) was somehow stripped of all the best talent in the industry, leaving them with inferior graders, is illogical. If they really were the best, what ever people making that claim mean by "best" (and I have no idea how anyone could generalize the talents of one grader to another so as to deem one the "best") then we'd all be complaining on the GAI board about the idiots at PSA.

Jackailius

<< <i>

<< <i>This is the truest statement on this thread:

GAI = the people that were the best PSA ever had to offer. It amazes me that anybody who likes PSA can bash GAI. >>



Because even middle-aged men can be fanboys. >>



you tell 'em Steve-Dave

MiniMaster

The GAI card does not have a natual rounded boarder on the upper right........it is an obvious paper loss.......look at the other 3 corners! Are they rounded? No.
The card is beat up and not surprisingly has a paper loss on the right upper corner.
That's my take anyway....LOL

Mopar70

The GAI is fake, its not paperloss...Read this link about the middle..were it says caution!
Link

Stingray

Good find there Mopar, thought that red part of the card looked to perfect to be paperloss.

Stingray

RonBurgundy

It does no good to bash others at the expense of PSA. If GAI and SGC did not exist, there'd be people complaining about how PSA monopolizes the industry and screws us with their grading. We'd be crying for an alternative. If you want to debate grades, standards for grading, etc., fine. But bashing others gets you nowhere. PSA is the king, for good reason. But there are good people at GAI and SGC also, and they are a credible alternative (at least for now).

Remember, stay classy, and I like scotch.

dgbaseball

That last post leads to an interesting discussion, not one I necessary want to get in to deeply here, but one I've thought about before and will gladly lay out my $.02, as I don't think this comment is at all accurate:

If GAI and SGC did not exist, there'd be people complaining about how PSA monopolizes the industry and screws us with their grading. We'd be crying for an alternative

I know it's kind of odd to say, but a PSA monopoly would be the best thing for card grading - I mean as a service, obviously not in terms of pricing, customer service and all the things that make industrial monopolies bad for the consumer.

Unless you're talking about pricing, they wouldn't "screw us with their grading" - they would be consistent and the industry as a whole would have one clear cut indisputable supreme court source for grading. That, in theory, would be a good thing.

I don't accept that anyone grades inherantly any better than anyone else i.e. it's not a competitive skill. There are grading standards, and we all interpret those standards, and have a general concensus about the application of those standards to a specific card. The "best" graders apply those standards with the greatest consistency and objectivity, and use subjective interpretation in the most appropriate way. Unlike most industries, PSA graders are not forced to perform at a higher level in order to compete with other companies with regards to their actual grading - the only effect competition has on the actual grading is it pollutes the market with inconsistencies - a PSA 5 OC is a GAI 6.5 is a BGS 4.5 is a PRO 10 etc

Again, obviously, the competition keeps PSA from charging $100/card, keeps them responding to customer service issues, keeps them progressing with specials and customer perks etc etc and that's all good.

Each grading company will apply grading standards differently. Some are just blatently wrong (or dishonest) in their interpretation of the standards, like PRO and GEM. But by all accounts, PSA applies them most consistently aligned with the opinions of collectors and dealers, and if they were the only one, the market and hobby would be a much better place. Except for the $100/card charge...

RonBurgundy

"Unless you're talking about pricing, they wouldn't "screw us with their grading" - they would be consistent and the industry as a whole would have one clear cut indisputable supreme court source for grading. That, in theory, would be a good thing."

In theory, you would be right. You make some reasonable points. But even with regard to grading, the market has already shown that alternatives to PSA from a grading standpoint are desired. For example, the desire from some collectors for the 1/2 point grading scale (which by the way, may be a reason for the growing acceptance of SGC).

You are also correct that there should be a general consensus about grading standards, and that perhaps there would not be any deviation from those standards were only one legitimate grading company to exist. But it would be my belief that a monopoly would only encourage more deviation from those standards (i.e., more "dealer-friendly grading", etc.).

One last point: any of the mid-tier companies like SGC and GAI are going to have to be tight in their grading and have fewer mistakes in what they do to have continued legitimacy, no matter "who" is running their companies.

KansasJayhawk

Mopar70,
Thanks! That was exactly the info I was looking for, so GAI did indeed grade a repo as authentic, despite the efforts to take this thread off track I am glad the original questoin is now answered.

Allen

Anyone have the link to the 1915 Ruth Repo PSA graded as authentic?

MiniMaster

Sure looks awfully white in the upper right compared to the rest of the dirty bent ugly looking card which would be consistant with paper loss?
Seems just as odd that there would be a perfect answer to Jayhawks question in that list? The only caution being exactly what is wrong with the card in question?

Guess I'm sticking on the side of the grading experts until I see a confirmation source on the "reprints have a rounded upper right boarder" theory! I don't see the upper right flaw as looking to perfect either. If you look real close it could be paper loss just as well as the reprint theory. One can't make a positive ID from that scan, it has a blur to it.

The other question is why would someone beat the card into submission if they were trying to make money? Can't make much on a 2 grade?

Then on top of all that your still saying a professional grading company wouldn't catch what appears to be the obvious flaw that catigorizes these as reprints? Not quite a boarderline call a grader would miss! If all reprints have a rounded right boarder.....every legit grading company would know about it! If it is that easy to fool the legit grading company's then we should all be worried about what we're buying out there.

NickM

It matches exactly with Ruth reprints I saw before.

Either it's a compromised holder or GAI blew it and graded a bad fake. I can't tell from a scan.

Nick

dgbaseball

FYS, (or should I say Mike Baker)

GAI sucks. To say GAI sucks is to say that they suck, their customer service sucks, their holders suck, their web site really sucks, and overall, their business sucks.

There, I said it. Now you all just say it too. I promise, you'll all feel a lot better. My name is Dave, and GAI sucks.

dgbaseball

RonBurgundy,

To continue these two conversations at once, good points about the 1/2 point system - probably with a comparable number of supporters on either side, as well as the pressure on the 2nd tier graders needing to get their act together and impress in order to really compete. As things are, I think the industry of grading and competition is really great for the business and hobby. Ultimately, I think company differences will converge - the 1/2 pt system will be universally embraced or rejected, a 7 NM will be a 7 NM will be a 7 NM. Then all the companies will have to fight about is attracting the biggest customer base with the best deals and specials, which is always great for the customers...

TimeMachine

I wouldn't even buy the treasure map leading to El Dorado's gold if it were in a GAI holder...

jackstraw

I don't think FYS is Mike Baker or should I say I would be surprised if it was? I am sure Mr Baker has chimed in here under an id but I doubt its FYS?

RonBurgundy

DG,

You make some good points. I agree that the competition within grading is good for the hobby. Nice to have a spirited conversation with you without getting inflammatory.



Ron

mtcards

That sound..its my television...it sucks

EagleEyeKid

I wonder what happened to the seller since he is now NARU.
I hope the buyer didn't get burned by sending in any money since
Paypal wasn't an option. BTW, I had sent S. Rocchi, M. Baker, and D. Fisher an email regarding the card and the other examples/links provided and never heard back from any of them

Maybe they contacted Ebay??

KansasJayhawk

Update:

Rounded upper right corner is a repo, hopefully this person did not get burned for to much cash.

mart

<< <i>Hi guys, Both of these cards I believe are fakes, The one in the CSA I (think) is fake, and it even looks trimmed on the right side..The one in the GAI holder is for sure a fake, noted by the rounded top corner..I just sold a 110% authentic Babe Ruth US Caramel about a week ago, it was graded by PSA and got a 5..Heres the link to my auction..

My US Caramel Babe Ruth

Steve >>




Thats a nice card !!!!!

mart

With only 14 FB & not a registered user of ebay, I would have thought twice before buying that one anyway !!