What will they do with a 45-P Merc I now have in grading? - some pics added/guess the coin
mercurydimeguy
Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
Ok, here's the scoop. I bought this 45-P in an ICG AU58 holder...it looked Unc and more-so it looked like it had some very nice full bands.
Cracked it and sent to PCGS and it came back graded an AU58. I still think this coin is Unc and a nice 63 Full Bands at that.
I crack it again and send in for grading. This time around it comes back MS63 but with no FB designation (I'm happy they at least graded it right this time...even though they didn't designate it).
So I sent it in a third time -- this time I didn't crack it. I sent it in as a single coin, under the $50 service level for "Designation Review". I also wrote comments to them that if they look under a 10X they'll see the no doubt FB. Also, I have a microscope which is great for closeups and under even a 30X it's no doubt FB.
I send in this 1 coin "7 Day order" which was logged in on 8/15, along with 2 other 15 day orders that were logged in on the same day. One was a raw order of 20 coins and one was a regrade order of 5 coins. Both the other 15 day orders have already been graded, shipped and received by me last week. This single coin, 7-Day 45-P designation review order has been in V2 for over a week. I called on Friday the 2nd of Sept -- V2...I'm thinking, great it's late but I should get the grade today -- bubkis! Called 2x this past week, including Friday late afternoon -- status: V2.
Needless to say I've never had a single-coin 7-Day order stay in V2 for 1 week.
What's the over/under that someone in a very senior position is re-re-re-re-re-re-viewing the coin, and consequently my real fun poll here is what's the over/under, odds, etc., that mercurydimeguy will get skunked or get rewarded?
Given the background on this single-coin submission, do you think they'll FB it or not?
Cracked it and sent to PCGS and it came back graded an AU58. I still think this coin is Unc and a nice 63 Full Bands at that.
I crack it again and send in for grading. This time around it comes back MS63 but with no FB designation (I'm happy they at least graded it right this time...even though they didn't designate it).
So I sent it in a third time -- this time I didn't crack it. I sent it in as a single coin, under the $50 service level for "Designation Review". I also wrote comments to them that if they look under a 10X they'll see the no doubt FB. Also, I have a microscope which is great for closeups and under even a 30X it's no doubt FB.
I send in this 1 coin "7 Day order" which was logged in on 8/15, along with 2 other 15 day orders that were logged in on the same day. One was a raw order of 20 coins and one was a regrade order of 5 coins. Both the other 15 day orders have already been graded, shipped and received by me last week. This single coin, 7-Day 45-P designation review order has been in V2 for over a week. I called on Friday the 2nd of Sept -- V2...I'm thinking, great it's late but I should get the grade today -- bubkis! Called 2x this past week, including Friday late afternoon -- status: V2.
Needless to say I've never had a single-coin 7-Day order stay in V2 for 1 week.
What's the over/under that someone in a very senior position is re-re-re-re-re-re-viewing the coin, and consequently my real fun poll here is what's the over/under, odds, etc., that mercurydimeguy will get skunked or get rewarded?
Given the background on this single-coin submission, do you think they'll FB it or not?
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Comments
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
roadrunner
<< <i>They don't appear to give FB status to anything under AU58. At AU55 or lower the wear starts to merge in with the band any ways. And in the case of the 1945, the lowest grade to date given to a FB coin, was a MS62. It is not likely that you will get the grade.
roadrunner >>
roadrunner, the 45-P is Unc and it's already in a PCGS MS63 holder -- (it went AU58 on it's first grading trip, then I cracked it and it went MS63 on a second trip). On this third trip it went in for "designation review" and not regrading. So there's not issue there about your MS/AU comment.
Besides, although you basic premise is true, my AU55 16-D on a presidential review got upgraded to AU55FB...the bands are all there so it shouldn't matter. I've also seen a number of other PCGS non-MS coins with FB...AU55FB 42/1-P, etc.
Their policy did change that they won't designate non-MS coins with FB ... but they still do. I would imagine though, for them to do it the coin really has to be no-doubt FB, like my AU55 (now AU55FB) 16-D.
I wish you had photos. My guess is it will not go FB. The odds, 10% FB/90% no bands. You will probaby get a free grading because of the amount of time delay. Keep us posted to the results.
Tony, I'll take pictures when I eventually get the coin back -- I didn't want to hassle them when I called in a couple of times when they did not/could not offer an explanation why it's in V2 for so long. Typically coins go in to V2 and sometimes ship the same day, or the next for sure...never a week, and not a coin that's already late.
After I post pics, I bet you if it doesn't FB people will rationlize why it's not FB. And if it FB's, people will rationlize why it went FB. The same thing happened when it went AU58...people said, "see there's rub"...then it goes MS63 and people said, "it looks like a nice Unc coin". I find that PCGS plastic really effects how people perceive/view the coin. If it had the same effect on me, I wouldn't have resubmitted it when it came back AU58
The blue cert/label doesn't mezmorize this mercurydimeguy into submission...or maybe it does....crack-and-resubmission
Good luck, hopefully it will go FB, and we can watch the reviews when you put up photos.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Good luck however.
NGC did do one MS-61FB and none lower.
<< <i>I must have read too quickly and not seen that it came back both AU58 and MS63. I realize PCGS has some variability but being that far off on a simple common date Merc dime seems like a lot, even for PCGS. >>
Building a grading set of Mercs is a lot harder than one could imagine...just ask Oreville
While NGC will grade Mercs 60FB, 61FB and 62FB -- most of which are either AU in MS holders or undergraded (e.g. 64's in 62 holders), PCGS seems to not go far below MS62 on a Merc. In essence, and MS62 PCGS Merc will be a 63/64 that's heavily beat up or a 63 that has a good amount of hairlines.
My experience reaffirms to me just how difficult it is to get consistently graded Mercs...even by professionals. On one day the 3 graders look at a coin and say AU58. Luckily I know better than to accept this opinion and I resubmit. 15-30 days later they look at the same coin and say it's MS63 (not 60, 61 or 62...which in itself could be a "War and Peace" type post).
Anyway, perhaps more so than any other series, if one is going to seriously collect Mercs one REALLY needs to know how to grade them or it might cost an extra $25k-$50k to build a set. That goes both ways -- I know a guy who sells raw Mercs and will never grade a Merc higher than MS65FB...some of them are real nice and I've made a few 67FB's at PCGS out of them
when their slab changes the value of a coin from $10 to $5000, they are more reluctant to do it
good luck
Does anyone know when was the last 45-P Full Bands dime made at PCGS? I'm not talking about a cracked out coin -- but rather a truly "new addition" to the Pop?
I'm curious just how long it has been?
All 4 were graded MS66FB!
My bet is all 4 were regrades of old MS65FB and none are new.
PCGS did grade its first MS68 1945 in August of this year.
I suspect that 3 of the 4 MS-66FB are cracked out MS-66FB looking for that MS-67FB and not 65FB making it into 665FB's.
In my opinion, only one of them upgraded from 65FB. Why do I think so? Where are those new MS-66FB's?
Spoke to the CSR rep this morning and he said that the coin was verified and should be getting shipped out. I asked him for the cert# and he said it didn't change...60206228
Looked it up -- No Bands
Well, I guess this will be my next coin that will live in the USPS mail system and pay rent at the rate of $30 per month at PCGS until they either get sick of seeing it or put it in to a Full Bands holder.
<< <i>The odds, 10% FB/90% no bands. >>
Post some photos when you get the coin.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Maybe I should send in about $30k worth of dimes for downgrading...along with this dime...saying that if this isn't FB, then they need to buy all of them back.
Can't understand why it's taking so long
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
It could just be the angle of the photo...that picture is somewhat old/odd, when my photography skills weren't that good. Perhpas I'll just take a new picture when the coin arrives back from PCGS.
Not to be a rude, so don't take it out of context, but I don't grade coins by consesus...may be I should, but I don't. No offense intended. I've seen 1,000's of Mercs in my life and I know what PCGS slabs as FB Mercs. It's just a marathon and not a sprint with them when it comes to grading semi-keys/keys. Sometimes one gets lucky and gets the right grade the first time, and sometimes it takes many, many, many submissions.
I've had coins go from AU58 to MS63FB, to MS64FB. I've had coins go from MS64FB to AU58...and the best yet, raw to MS64FB, to MS66FB to MS67FB -- all the same coin! I've also had a coin go from MS64 no bands, to MS63FB, to MS64FB -- again, the same coin (a key date). I'm keeping records of all my submissions, as they represent REAL data -- not supposition -- which will provide a great basis for a research report I'm working on.
TPG's do a very good job grading certain series' of coins, and not such a good job with other series' of coins. Mercs are perhaps one of the worst. I've spent about $4k in grading fees on Mercs alone this year, so I assure you I have a valid basis for some of my conclusions.
64FB to 67FB...yep I remember that coin. Big spread, huh ?
Ken
P.S. I can't wait to see that "report" as well!!
I'm traveling on business so I'll have to fix it when I get home...probably Saturday morning. By that time I should probably have the coin back from PCGS, at which time I should be able to take better pics.
Quick poll -- not the best pictures, but I've just not had any time lately...with work and all
Which one of these coins is the 45-P that went "no bands"? One is the "no bands" 45-P while the others are all PCGS FB coins.
Coin #1
Coin #2
Coin #3
Coin #4
Hard to tell from the pics, but #4 looks FSB, #1 looks close, #2 & #3, hard to tell but don't appear to be FSB's?
My guess is #1 is your coin??
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Since I have to pick just one.....I'd say #2.
But I would say #1 is very close, #2 is worse, #3 is not even in the ball park (your coin?), and #4 is the most split of the 4 but still not fully split. If only I had known that not full would become full. Or less filling would become great taste!
roadrunner
2 and 3 not FB (at least on my monitor)
4 could be FB, one side of cent band is slightly blurry and cant tell.
#1
...and the dark spot you see in the middle is just a hit on the bands, which for some reason reflected the light very weird.
BTW -- I hope the odd picture of #1 wasn't a giveaway. The other pictures I had...this one was new. When I have some time, I'll put the 45-P under my microscope and snap off some "close up" pictures.
BTW -- I also had a 19-S go MS64 no bands, and it's bands are probably better than the 45-P.
One thing I've been taught is to grade the coin and not try to use previously graded coins to use as comparisons.
This point has been the topic of many discussions on these message boards, and I'm actually in your camp!! The problem is that in order to market grade coins (like PCGS does) one (e.g the graders) need to look at a lot of coins in different grades; at the very least create a catalogue in one's head (if you're the grader) and then in essence "rank" (not grade) the coin based on comparing the coin to others you have seen.
Thus, statistically speaking, I've had the best and the worst results when sending in 1 coin (at the $50 level). Meaning, the results were the most incosistent. Conversely, by sending in a lot of the same denomination coins for grading typically produces the most consistent results (because they have a whole batch to look at for comparison purposes) -- bad or good -- but consistent. If one coin, which might be the first or second graded, turns them off, they KILL the whole batch! If one coin, again the first or secong graded, turns them one, they GIFT the whole batch! I've had all of these scenarios happen to me.
I just sent in another batch of 6 coins, which I looked at for days...trying to put them in the right order. I think I did OK? Anxious to see the results.
<< <i>Look at the bottom bands of each coin and it's easy to see which one isn't full band. I repeat my question: how can the central bands become full without the lower bands being full and bold?? >>
It has been my experience with PCGS that in their FB designation they're primarily concerned with the center bands being split -- meaning no bridging/connecting of the upper and lower band.
Examples in other series, SLQ, walkers, etc.
Is this the answer you were looking for or was your question a classification question?
Especially coins with very large price differences for .05% extra strike.
<< <i>Technically, that might be possible [please show me some images to confirm it is]. But as a matter of normal instances it would seem to me that the center band is the highest area and requires the most force and therefore the upper and lower bands would normally be full before the center band is full. And therefore any coin in which this is not the case would come under extra scrutiny by the grading services.
Especially coins with very large price differences for .05% extra strike.
The center band being full has little to do with how hard the coin gets hit.
As a matter of practice, the dies used to get cleaned/polished, etc., after a certain # of coins were struck. It is at this point where the band (on the actual die) quality degrades.
There are some interesting stories about this, specifically around the 45-P and why so few examples in FB exist. Actually the problem started in 1944, as you will note that high grade (MS67FB) 1944-P dimes are almost impossible to find and are very expensive for an "apparently" common date Merc.
Oreville, Fairlaneman, care to expound on the story mentioned above or shall I do the honors?
I don't know if this is the case with Mercs, but a similar situation exists with Jefferson Nickels - sometimes you'll
find an example of an issue that typically comes weakly struck, only this one will have full steps while some/most
of the other detail on the reverse is poorly defined.
I believe this can happen due to the following scenario:
1) The die is used to strike many coins at less than optimum pressure, resulting in non-full-step coins.
2) Over the life of the die, most of the details are being worn away through normal use, while the steps (the
high point of the striking) remains pristine since the metal was never squeezed into this area.
3) At some point late in the die-life, the press is adjusted for some reason and the remaining coins coming
from this die are struck at a higher pressure, resulting in full-step coins with other details being weak. These
coins often exhibit other late-die-state characteristics susch as die erosion in the fields.
Is this a reasonable explanation for Mercury dimes with the central bands being split while the upper/lower are not?
Ken
<< <i>Show me a picture of just one PCGS certified Full Bands 1945 dime with incomplete lower bands and I'll shut up and go away.
PCGS MS64FB
Mercurydimeguy: Indeed, the US Mint in Philadelphia reused those dies a lot longer than their intended lifespan and reduced striking pressure beginning in middle to late 1944. They knew FDR was not going to be around long during the Presidential Election season in 1944. But as to the details, you have the honor of expounding on the story.
TDN: I agree. Bottom bands look FSB to me as well. Must be the wrong coin?
Do 45-P mercs with Godzilla Split Bands (GSB) bring a large premium to FSB? Would make sense to me that the top 10% of the FSB's might be the only HSB (honest split bands).
roadrunner