German grading terms and U.S. equivalents

coinpictures

After following the references to Kuenker's site (soon to be appropriately renamed Droolsville) and being a tad confused about the grading terminology and what the U.S. equivalents might be, I did some searching here and elsewhere online, and came up with some information, but much of it quite inconsistent.

First, there's the nice chart here.

However, it equates Stempelglanz to MS60, whereas most accounts I've seen here put that at MS64 or better.

Then there's the old chart from a few years back here on the board. I've replaced abbreviations with their terms where I could; some I remain unsure of.

To start with, is this relatively accurate?

Stempelglanz -- Ch. BU and up (MS-63 and up) Many accounts I see put it at 64+ not 63+

prfr. -- Unc. (MS-60-62) Aren't there a number of terms that can be used for base UNC? I remember seeing "Unz." here and there

Vorzüglich -- Ch. EF to Ch. AU (EF-45 to AU-55)

Sehr schön -- VF or Ch. VF to Ch. EF (VF-20 or VF-30 to EF-45)

Schön -- F to VF or Ch. VF (F-12 to VF-20 or VF-30)

s.g.e. -- VG

g.e. -- G

g.e.s. -- AG


Then there are the following terms, which I'm not sure where they fall:

Fast Stempelglanz

Fast Vorzüglich

Vorzüglich-Stempelglanz


Are there any other important terms to be aware of?

Polierte = Proof


Thanks in advance for any assistance.

-Dan

hyperizer

Ron Guth has a useful chart. According to him Fast Stempelglanz = AU.

coinpictures

Doh!

You'd think I would have checked there... *sigh*

Thanks,

-Dan

Preussen

I'll take a stab at it. It is no clearer than our own system really, as grading is subjective in any language. I don't like to equate numeric grading to German standards (below Stgl), so In general, my experiences have been as follows:

St, Stgl, Stempelglanz (BU) is usually MS64 or so, but sometimes a bit less.
Very Choice to Gem BU coins are often described as St fein.
BU "First Strike" coins are usually(but not always) superior (often P/L) examples. They are called "Erstabschlag" or EA.
Pfr usually is an average Unc.

Vz is EF
SS is VF
S is Fine
Lower grades are seldom listed.

Proof is Polierte Platte, or PP. Sometimes you'll see pp- for a less than average quality Proof.

"Fast" means "almost" and can preceed most any grade. Fast Vz would indicate a coin better than the average VF, but not quite EF. Fast St can mean pfr (Unc) or AU, depending on the seller using the term. VZ+ can also denote a superior EF to AU coin, or ss+, etc.

Hope this helps. - Preussen

Udo

I agree with most of what Preussen said, I’d like to add a few points

Stempelglanz St

Lustre: full original lustre
Wear: not allowed
Rim dings: not allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye on the devices: not allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye in the fields: not allowed
Hairlines due to cleaning: not allowed

In my opinion a St coin starts at MS64-MS65 but I’m not as familar with US grading as you are


Prägefrisch Prfr, Bankfrisch Bfr – Mint state

This isn’t a classical grade, it describes a coin in mint state condition that shows small marks caused due to the conditions during the minting process and the following further processing.

Lustre: full original lustre
Wear: not allowed
Rim dings: not allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye on the devices: little marks allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye in the fields: little marks allowed
Hairlines due to cleaning: not allowed

The value of a coin in Prägefrisch grade is comparable to coins of the grade Vorzüglich, or Vorzüglich – Stempelglanz


Vorzüglich Vz – Extremly fine

Extremly fine is just the translation, but it doesnt’t mean the same as US – EF!

Lustre: original lustre maybe still remaining, but can also no longer be present, due to a short period of circulation
Wear: only the slightest wear on the high points of the devices allowed
Rim dings: normally not allowed, must be stated
Marks visible to the naked eye on the devices: caused through circulation not allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye in the fields: little marks allowed
Hairlines due to cleaning: some are allowed in the fields

Steve, remember the coin you bought from Künker, sold as vorzüglich, that is in a MS-slab now
In my opinion this grade is at least an AU58


Sehr Schön, ss – Very fine


Lustre: not necessary, but may be present in the fields
Wear: wear on the devices allowed, but mustn’t impair the motif too much
Rim dings: allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye on the devices: little marks allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye in the fields: little marks allowed
Hairlines due to cleaning: allowed

I compare this grade with US – EF


Schön, s - Fine

Lustre: zero
Wear: well worn, but the motif is still clearly in evidence
Rim dings: allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye on the devices: heavy marks allowed
Marks visible to the naked eye in the fields: heavy marks allowed
Hairlines due to cleaning: who cares about hairlines

I hope this helps a bit

coinpictures

<< <i>I hope this helps a bit >>



More than just a bit.

That's the most helpful caomparison I've seen yet. Thanks!

-Dan

MacCrimmon

<< <i>In my opinion a St coin starts at MS64-MS65 but I’m not as familar with US grading as you are .... >>




When I'm presented a parcel of Swiss or German coins for that matter represented as STGL, I expect them to be at least fully up to PCGS's standards for MS64.

However, while those parcels will contain nice quality MS64/65 coins on average, they will also range up to very solid MS67 or even MS68 coins from time to time. The upper end coins will also cost a bit more than the typical 65 coin, but for the quality I find those premiums acceptable.

PCGS did work in concert with a number of Euro dealers to build specific grading sets over a decade ago....at least they did with SWZ. Guth and Karl understand the Euro-US grading relationships quite well.

wildjag

Aha I found it again

My thanks to everyone who posted above me

SYRACUSIAN

Prägefrisch Prfr, Bankfrisch Bfr – Mint state

This isn’t a classical grade, it describes a coin in mint state condition that shows small marks caused due to the conditions during the minting process and the following further processing.




Some German and Swiss auction houses are quite conservative in their grading. I have my eye on a couple of fast prägefrisch lots, that look choice mint state from the photo and candidates for a 63/64RB. But you need to be familiar with how copper coins are described, if it's not full red and perfect, it's often a fast prf or fast stgl.

Udo,thanks for clarifying this.

spoon

One major point of distinction, before our notions of European grading standards reach mythic proportions, all of the above guidelines are accurate only for reputable dealers.

Just because we describe European grading standards as more conservative it certainly does not mean that dealers across the pond are any less vunerable to all the same repugnant phenomena as affect so many of our own dealers. There are indeed overgraded coins in Germany, especially at the local dealer level. On top of all those things we're familiar with seeing here, there is often a tendency among too many to consider older dipped copper still collectable, minor imperfections may often be overlooked and not mentioned in an otherwise UNC coin, and... my biggest peeve of all... too many handle coins directly, rolling them around in their hands, fingerprints and all. And too often these things are acceptable. It does seem, though, that much of this is changing. Prices have been rising and people are becoming more conscious of true quality.

None of this is to counter what others said above, it's all true. But don't lose perspective!