LINCOLN CENT WEIGHTINGS FOR ALL NEW REG SETS ARE UP

Steve

I just noticed that the four NEW Lincoln Cent Registry sets have now been weighted. They are the basic and the with varieties BUSINESS STRIKE sets for 1909 thru 2005 and the basic and the with varieties PROOF STRIKE sets for 1909 thru 2005. I do not know if BJ has plans to automatically update these sets from existing wheat and memorial sets in the registry, but I kind of doubt that will happen until the new PCGS Set Registry update is put online. Of course, everyone can manually add their coins to the new registries at any time now.

In my opinion these four registries reflect the ultimate in Lincoln cent collecting. The person or persons who hold first place in the 1909 thru 2005 Lincoln cent with varieties business strike set registry and the 1909 thru 2005 Lincoln cent with varieties proof strike set registry by next June, 2006 when the awards are given, can be really proud of the achievement. I also feel that everyone who participates in this competition can feel proud of their own efforts no matter where they place. I do hope that everyone who collects Lincoln cents in PCGS holders will take the time to enter their coins into these new Set Registries. Good luck.
Steve

RegistryNut

I do welcome the weightings for this set,however,it grows more apparent everyday that the Memorial
part of this set is not being fairly considered. Every Memorial collector knows there are some very hard to
aquire dates in ms66 and/or ms67 and to weight every date the same is just becoming intolerable. PCGS
has created a first class phenomena in their registry sets but to participate in them using third class weightings always leaves me shaking my head. JMO!

RegistryNut

LincolnsRule

The weightings would be perfect if it were for an avg Ch BU set, but nearly all registry sets consist of gem coins for 34-date. And they have it completely backwards. They weight the 30's even more than the 40's and 50's which are weighted more than the Memorials. It's the 30's that are the easiest in high grade or gem, and some of the Memorials that are the most difficult.

Steve

Weightings, just like grading or values will ALWAYS be controversal. It is human nature to rationalize a point of view favorable to your own situation. In this case PCGS chose to use traditional date/mintmark and variety rarity rather than condition (grade) rarity to apply higher weights to. Steve

RegistryNut

Two guys are tied in the 1909-Present basic Lincoln set. They both go into a coin shop. One has $20 to
spend and the other has $1000. The first guy buys an ms66 1958D for his $20. The other spends his
whole $1000 wad on an ms66 1963D and an ms66 1973S. They hurry home and enter their new coins into
their sets and: They are still tied!!!!!!!! Looks as though a $20 bill can go toe-to-toe
with a $1000 bill with the present weighting system. It's not human nature to rationalize this as favorable to my situation. It's human nature to recognize this as what it really is: unfair, outdated, and in dire need of an overhaul!

RegistryNut

WaterSport

Well Said RegistryNut! I even think LincolnRules is making sense. Especially as I am having a hard time getting those last Darn 9 Memorials!


WS

Steve

Michael, what you are saying is that the weightings should agree with pricing. What happens, in your example, when the price of your 1963D and 1973S come down 50% because a few more of them are "made". Do we change the weightings? Also, what about my 1914D in MS65RB in the 1909-Present Basic set. If your coins get a weighting of more than "1" and my coin stays at a weighting of "10", doesn't that reduce the "value" of MY coin relative to your coins?

This gets back to my comment earlier in this thread. Everyone has their own rationale based on their own situation. That's why I don't take this Set Registry participation as being competitive. For me it is for fun.
Steve

RegistryNut

<< <i>Michael, what you are saying is that the weightings should agree with pricing. What happens, in your example, when the price of your 1963D and 1973S come down 50% because a few more of them are "made". Do we change the weightings? Also, what about my 1914D in MS65RB in the 1909-Present Basic set. If your coins get a weighting of more than "1" and my coin stays at a weighting of "10", doesn't that reduce the "value" of MY coin relative to your coins?

This gets back to my comment earlier in this thread. Everyone has their own rationale based on their own situation. That's why I don't take this Set Registry participation as being competitive. For me it is for fun.
Steve >>


Hi Steve,
I'm not implying that weightings should be based on pricing. Many factors can be considered when PCGS
assigns a weight. I'm simply stating that every date in the Memorial series is weighted equally and we all
know they are not equally available. Every series has key or semi-key dates. Lincoln Memorials weightings
do not reflect this point although they do exist. Your 14D carries the clout it deserves but how would you like it if the 58D also carried a weight of 10? This 238 coin set we're discussing probably needs a top
weighting of 20. Then I could be happy with proper Memorial weightings and you could still maintain a top
weighting for your 14D.

Always happy to hash these things out. Happy hunting.

RegistryNut

LincolnsRule

Steve, unless you personally have a hoard of ms66 63-d's and 73-s's, or personally know someone who does, you don't know what you are talking about. I have been buying/searching rolls for two years and those dates are NOT going to drop in price by half unless the entire Lincoln market crashes.

Steve

I will admit that I don't have a full appreciation of condition grading within the Lincoln cent business strike memorial series. The reason is I aquired my memorials very inexpensively a number of years ago and I have no desire to upgrade to top pop status. A nice MS65 looks fine to me. Also, I can't see sending these coins into PCGS for grading because, quite frankly, some may grade out as MS64RD and even if they grade MS65 or MS66, to me, it just is not worth the slab fee. Now, I can understand the point you guys are making about rarity in certain SLABBED GRADED Lincoln dates. Maybe the memorial series itself needs to be reweighted for condition differences if the grade differential itself doesn't work. I'd leave that decision to David Hall and "the powers that be". Steve

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Collecting coins SHOULD be about the coin.Selling coins MAY BE about the money.
Memorial Cents were never really collected by grade before 1995.As a matter of fact both NGC and PCGS use to refuse to grade them.The reason for this was not to let any boiler room telemarketer gag some unsuspecting senior citizen claiming their 1963 D Lincoln cent in ms 66 red is a rare coin.

Lincolns Rule - You seem to be a very astute young Lincoln cent collector and a dealer in Memorials.My advice to you is to wait ten years and then see if your 1963 D or a 1973 s is worth the moon money that you would like to get for the coins.My insight is that you will be proven wrong.

Collect what you like and go with your instincts or you will be a buyer of plastic and will miss the WHOLE COIN COLLECTING EXPERIENCE

Stewart

centmaster

Stewart is right. When you're young, don't spend a lot of money on coins that haven't proven themselves yet. Stick to coins with a proven track record. When the dust settles on the memorials, you'll be glad you did. While some pops may stay the same, most others will go up and bring the values way down. If you like Lincolns, then go for the early stuff while they're still barely affordable.

ellewood

When you're young, don't spend a lot of money on coins that haven't proven themselves yet.

If you wait until a coin "proves itself" then wouldn't you end up paying a premium for it???? It seems to me that you will miss the boat and pay much more, IMHO. I don't buy these lincolns because I want to "make money" further down the road...I am buying them to COLLECT them.

When the dust settles on the memorials, you'll be glad you did. While some pops may stay the same, most others will go up and bring the values way down. If you like Lincolns, then go for the early stuff while they're still barely affordable.

I have learned here on the boards that several of these Memorial dates (60's and 70's) are quite scarce and pops are starting to slowly level off. Until someone provides me with evidence that pops will go up, and significantly, then and only THEN will I wait to buy these dates. Does someone know something that I don't know? Even if huge numbers of unsearched rolls of these scarcer dates are being stashed away (to be opened at a later date), I have learned from numerous individuals (like Jaime Haletky, Clackamas and BowTie) how many HUNDREDS of rolls have to be searched before you stumble across a gem.

Won't be long now before Lincoln Rules chimes in.....

...and where is Clackamas these days?

Steve

I don't agree with everything Stewart says, but his comments here really hit home with me. Historically, Lincoln cent collecting has always been about the date and mintmark. Sure, we all wanted the nicest example we could afford, but that was (and is) SUBJECTIVE, not objective. Everyone has their own opinion about grading, BUT the date and mintmark on a particular Lincoln cent is NOT subjective. It is objective. You KNOW what it is. If you own a 1914D Lincoln cent you own a coin that is very special in the Lincoln series. There is NO doubt in any collectors mind about that. If you own a common 1991D Lincoln cent in a grade that PCGS says is the top grade they have ever graded that date and mintmark, what you have is a coin that maybe YOU perceive is valuable because of the grade assigned, but someone else looks at the coin and says it really isn't that great. It gets down to what each of these example coins are really worth to their owners and as possible sales in the future. For me, I would rather have a 1914D in VF30 than a 1991D in MS70. Maybe it's just my mindset, but one is universally recognized as a special coin while the other has been subjectively assigned a grade that supposidely makes it a special coin. Steve

lincolncentguy

I'd rather have the 1991-D in MS70 than a 1914-D in VF30.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Lincoln centguy - I'll bet you can't tell the difference between a 1991 D graded ms 69 or ms 70.Neither can Chris Clausen or Jaime Haletky.Nor myself,nor David Hall.Come to think of it on many occasions I have seen "modern crap" go from ms 67 red to ms 69 red from grading twice at the same coin show.

Ellewood - Alot of people know ALOT that you don't know about Lincolns.First off the best mint state coins generally come out of mint sets.Secondly your an amateur,a novice Lincoln cent collector who needs more years in the hobby.

Lincolns rule - Yes I personally know someone with 100's and perhaps thousands of 1963 and 1973 mint sets.And yes I would bet I can get PCGS to grade a few ms 67 reds.Show me some 1969 s DDO cents in full Red or 1970 s DDO in full Red and then I'll be impressed.

Stewart

lincolncentguy

Stewart, you're absolutely correct. I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 1991-D MS69RD or MS70RD, just as much as I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 1914-D VF 20-25-30. But for me, I would still take a 1991-D MS69RD over a 1914-D VF30. Now, if we were talking about a 1914-D MS63-64-65RD (who can tell the difference sometimes?), that would be another situation.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

I would still take a 1991 D ms 69 Red over a 1914 D VF 30

Lincoln centguy - That's really sad but thanks for your input

Stewart

LincolnsRule

First thing, welcome to the boards LincolnCentGuy!

I also think absolute rarity is cooler than condition rarity, but people (like you Stewart!) seek out the very best 14-d's and 26-s's so why not do that with the other dates too? Even though pcgs didn't grade Memorials before 1995, I bet there were a lot of collectors who were still always looking for Lincoln Memorials that would improve the quality of their album set. Maybe they didn't go for all ms67's (before pcgs there was no standard on what an ms67 actually was. Unfortunately that still seems true.) but they did try to find spot free well struck flashy gems. It's the natural thing to do as a collector! It is what can be fun about collecting! By the way Stewart, you own an ms67rd 54-p. Are you not proud of that coin at all? Do you care about it at all? Why not sell it? (or trade it to me!). So you are right on almost everything to do with Lincolns but I still think you are wrong about the 1963 and 1973 mint sets, well unless your friend happened to get some special sets of first struck coins off the dies. Cladking can probably back me up, but I think it wasn't until 1986 when the mint started putting anything but avg coins in mint sets. There was the Arizona hoard of mint sets, 1800 1968 mint sets and 400 each of '69,71,72,73,74. These were terrific well kept sets. Clackamas bought all the 1968's and found one lone 67rd 68-p cent, one full step 68-d nickel (only one ever graded fs by pcgs) and one ms67 68-d Kennedy. Even that is quite impressive of course, but he put a lot of work into it and deserved them. I bought most of the 69-74 sets and I found nothing at all compared to him. Not a single ms67rd cent. Not even an ms66 73-s cent in 400 sets. I have a few dimes that should grade ms67 and some ms66 quarters (that might be undergraded) and that was it. Even if your friend can get a few each of 63-d and 73-s in ms67rd, there won't be many other such quality hoards out there.


<< <i>Collect what you like and go with your instincts or you will be a buyer of plastic and will miss the WHOLE COIN COLLECTING EXPERIENCE >>


That's very well said and great advice! It is true though that collecting high grade Memorials or any other moderns can be a coin collecting experience and not a plastic buying experience. It's just too bad the grading companies, pcgs in particular, have so much control.

LincolnsRule

<< <i>While some pops may stay the same, most others will go up and bring the values way down. >>


Yeah, that is right. The key is learning about Lincolns and the rarity or commonness of certain dates yourself. For example I have completely ignored the 99-date coins as these will always be the most common as people have saved a ton since the advent of state quarters and collecting popularity. Some time when I have more time I'll post a date-by-date analysis of the entire Memorial set here on the boards. (Right now I'm supposed to be writing my math PhD thesis and not dealing in Lincolns...)



<< <i>If you wait until a coin "proves itself" then wouldn't you end up paying a premium for it???? It seems to me that you will miss the boat and pay much more, IMHO. >>


Very well said Ellewood! How much did you pay for your 66rd 14-d Stewart? Or how about the $2000 65rd 20-s you mentioned. I bet a lot of people thought you were paying crazy money for those!

ellewood

Ellewood - Alot of people know ALOT that you don't know about Lincolns.First off the best mint state coins generally come out of mint sets.Secondly your an amateur,a novice Lincoln cent collector who wouldn't know a scarce Lincoln cent if Lincoln came off the cent and bit you in the nose.If I met you at an auction bidding on SCARCE Lincoln cents then I would call you a pissant and prevent you from winning any Lincoln cent at auction.

You are 100% correct in saying that I am an amateur and I am a novice as I have only been collecting PCGS lincolns for 2 years. Does that make me less of a person than you? I don't think so.

Calling me a "pissant" and threatening to beat me in any "scarce auction" with your big money is absolutely pointless Stewart. YOU WON'T EVER FIND ME STANDING NEXT TO YOU AT A "SCARE LINCOLN CENT" AUCTION because 1) I can't afford it and 2) even if I could, I wouldn't put up that kind of stupid money and INVEST my money that way.

You don't know me and I don't know you...so don't attack me personally on these boards because you happen to hold some of the best lincolns in existence. It appears that you are always looking for conflict here and to put people like me down. I don't care how much more you know about lincolns.....I laugh at people like you Stewart...you come off as negative, unhappy and a real a-hole. I have alot to learn about lincolns but you have alot to learn about common courtesy and respect for other's opinions.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

I'm truly sorry for saying anything mean and nasty Ellewood.

Stewart

RegistryNut

<< <i>I'm truly sorry for saying anything mean and nasty Ellewood.

Stewart >>





I must say Stewart's reply to Ellewood is certainly warranted and could create a more favorable
impression of himself. Thanks Stewart! Sometimes a very little thing we do adds up to something
much larger.

RegistryNut