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Awesome mail day for me.. New favorite card!

Garrett(Knuckles) newest creation and my new favorite card image



image

image


Ryan

Comments

  • RipublicaninMassRipublicaninMass Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭
    @!!!!
  • Here is his webpage I believe(i checked it out after seeing the url on the back of one of the scans of his cards)

    LINK

    I believe there is a price list. I wonder if he gives discount to psa board membersimage
    Current Sets:
    1960 Armour Coins
    Greg Maddux Basic
    Greg Maddux Master
    All Time 49ers
  • zef204zef204 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭
    Simply beautiful! Nice card. Did you have to find the auto or send it to PSA or did Garrett take care of that?
    EAMUS CATULI!

    My Auctions
  • KnucklesKnuckles Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭
    Ryan, I'm so glad you like the card. image Doing a baseball card is a nice change.




    << <i>Did you have to find the auto or send it to PSA or did Garrett take care of that? >>

    Ryan bought the autograph and had the seller ship it to me (auto was on the back of one of those HOF postcard plaques). I made the card and sent it into PSA/DNA and they then shipped it to him.





    << <i>you need to post a price list >>

    You'll find prices on the order form I have up on my website in the 'How to Order' section.. Quick run down though.. $49.99 USD or $59.99 CAD is what I charge to make each card, regular mail shipping is included. If you want it authenticated/slabbed by PSA/DNA it's an extra $39.99 USD or $49.99 CAD this includes express post shipping to them. I don't make anything from the PSA/DNA submissions after I pay for express post to ship it to them. I just wanted to make it more convenient for people to receive the card authenticated rather than receive the card and have to ship it to PSA/DNA themselves wasting time.




    << <i>I wonder if he gives discount to psa board members >>

    $45 US / $55 CAD can't do any better on the PSA/DNA submission fee though.
    image
  • Mac53Mac53 Posts: 805
    That is sweet. Very nice item.
    "Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well."image
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    Knuckles

    has you (or any of your clients) ever talked to the likes of Mastro about auctioning one your cut signatures?

    it would seem to me that some rare autos could create a lot of interest.
    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092
    Knuck,
    Only a matter of time before you cashed in on this idea. However, as a fellow entrepenuer, I would suggest starting your pricing on the low end and gathering a nice group of regular clientele. Then you can adjust your prices to the demand of your service. I would imagine that the people contacting you right now are the people on this board and the folks that read the Beckett article. I would guess that's about 5-10 people per week. Why not let the guys who got in on the ground floor get a price break and you can ask them for testimonials and things of that nature that you could use in your marketing. Then you have those guys for life because they are hooked on what is no doubt a great service (but you truly need to see the cards in person as we all know), and you have great PR. Basically, my advice is to do everything in your power to have this thing take off quickly rather than make it a slow upward rise- You've clearly put the time and effort into building your website that it seems like you are ready to get going. If I'm mistaken about your intentions and you're making the cut card autos as a side thing, please forgive me, but I can tell by the way you've jumped on your recent Beckett exposure that you like where this is heading.

    Now, I'm not saying your service is overpriced, but it leaves not a lot of room for people to profit off what you are doing for them. Right now, in this market, at that price point, I think you will get people who would like to see a PSA/DNA cut card of their favorite player(s) for their collection. You would have a ton more submissions if you allowed your pricing to leave room for profit on cut auto cards of stars and maybe even semistars. I think right now you're locking yourself in to selling to only true collectors, which isn't a bad thing from a hobby standpoint. But from a money-making standpoint you could do a lot better.

    Example: I have a Tony Gwynn auto on an index card I got ten years back, worth about $15-20 on the index card. The average Gwynn collector already has a Gwynn auto on something (ball most likely) so the index card means nothing to him. This is where your service adds value (I'm sure I don't have to tell you this). You cut the auto, put it on a well designed card, and add a nice pic, bio, and stats with your beautiful template. Then you send it in to PSA. All in all, maybe 30 min- 45 min. worth of work for you (or an employee?). If my timing is off I apologize. Anywho, in order for him to make a decent profit after your service, he's going to need to sell the card for around $150 to do well, which probably isn't going to happen. I would say around $100 is the pricepoint something like this would go for, and Gwynn is a HOFer. Granted this leaves not a lot of room for profit on your end, but there are things you can do to make it happen. Have you tried opening the lines of communication with PSA? I'm sure they would give you a break if you were a regular PSA/DNA submitter and as long as you market them as part of your service. Basically, if you could come up with a number equalling exactly what you can make per card, and taking your labor into consideration, while leaving room for your client to profit, that would be the target price point. That's PSA's business model in the current market and it seems like it's working. Notice how they don't give us a break enough to the point where the service is "cheap", but they lower their prices slightly in order to get us to submit more? What I don't agree with about PSA's service is that they charge differently for 1960s commons and 1960s stars- afterall, isn't the same amount of time, labor, and energy going into grading both? That's like owning a carwash and charging a guy who has a BMW mor ethan a guy who has a Ford Taurus. Sorry, getting off track here.

    Also, I'm sure you're working on this, but you could come up with different templates to choose from. Hell, you could even have one design per year, which would keep the same people coming back with their favorite players every year. You could even date each design. You could limit some of your best designs to the first 25 people and charge a premium. The possibilities really are limitless since you're carving out your own niche.

    Knuckles, forgive me if I'm out of line here, I just love theorizing about getting budding businesses with great ideas off the ground, even if they aren't my own. Admittedly, these are all theories, but in my experiences in getting my own business off the ground (well, actually I'm a partner- www.safefoodsolutions.com- shameless plug), I would always listen to any advice that came my way. Not necessarily agree with it, but listen at the very least. By the way, I'm not an auto guy at all, but I think the Paige is beautiful and I would consider your service for a bunch of my favorite players.
    Good luck with all this and steer clear of the shifties and the shadies.


    Lee

    Edited to say that I would never tell anybody how to run their business. These are only suggestions.
  • shouldnt austinchau get a piece of this action...
  • zef204zef204 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭
    Knuckles-

    As I said once before to you, I would be careful using team/league/HOF logos without permission if you intend on capitalizing on your talent. I think that you will eventually run into troble by doing so and advise you against how you replied before "I'll deal with that when it happens." If you start getting many orders and they are hitting Mastro/eBay I think eventually the organizations whose logos are represented will come a callin. There maybe a fine line between people only paying for your services and those organizations feeling you are unlawfully profiting from using their image.

    I am not a lawyer(nor do I play one on TV) but I too am an entrepenuer and know copyrights can be a beotch. Even if you are not profitting from using the logo, and as CDsNutz said, someone eventually will and you will be the one who reproduced them illegally.

    "Just watch your back side buddy" which is a line a great friend and Chicago cop repeated to me before he was killed in the line of duty way before his time. I always watch mine and those around me because of this and therefor I say to you. Just watch your backside buddy.

    The cut sig cards are phenominal and I hope you can continue to make them for you, us, and everyone and hopefully can make a buck off your talent. Just make sure you are protected.


    Jordan
    EAMUS CATULI!

    My Auctions
  • CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092
    Zef hit on another thing,
    Someone is going to make money off this idea, and it should be you. Do it the best you can and explore all the angles.

    Lee
  • zef204zef204 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭


    << <i> Do it the best you can and explore all the angles >>

    absolutely!

    I am looking forward to 2008 and 1/1 Exquisite "Bare KNUCKLES Collection" image
    EAMUS CATULI!

    My Auctions
  • KnucklesKnuckles Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭
    calleocho,

    Clients have talked to me about possibly making a special set of autographed cards to auction off on Mastronet. If done it won't be for quite awhile as it takes time to find nice useable autographs.




    Lee,

    You're not out of line and I appreciate the advice. Please don't take the following as me being defensive. image

    I see your point with Tony Gwynn.. He's still around to sign cards though. My cards are a much cheaper and much nicer alternative to crap (in my opinion) like this.. $2,000! For this ugly card with a cut out autograph that doesn't even nicely fit in the space for it. Rather than buying this card he/she could have purchased a Ted Williams signed index card or something similar and have had a card made/authenticated for less than $200. I'm not saying a Ted Williams card of mine would go for that much but I believe it most certainly will go for much more than the cost put into buying the autograph and making a card out of it.

    People have offered me $500 to $1,000 for my Terry Sawchuk card. The autograph cost me $120 so there's quite a lot of profit to be made for those using my services (if getting cards made by deceased HOF star players.)

    This is a side business/hobby under my other business (making websites). I know the importance of starting low to gain momentum to get your feet off the ground faster. What I charged for a website when first starting out was far less than what I charge now. The price I charge to make a card however is as low as I can go without completely wasting my time. I wish it only took me 30min - 45min but it doesn't. It takes 2 and a half hours of my spare time to finish a card. It takes 2 hours to design the front and backside of the card. If I were to use just any ol' picture on the front with a generic backside with no picture/stats etc like the large card manufactures do it would take just 30min but I make every card as if it were for my own collection. I hunt for the best pictures to use, manipulate the size/brightness of them. I search for the players statistics and double check them with another resource before placing them on the card. I put effort into the short bio on the back trying to make it as interesting/appealing as possible.. I put special attention to the size of the 'window' for the autograph to show through. I take the images to the photo lab to get developed once I have them back it takes 30min to cut the card. The tools cost money too.. I just purchased a high end $350 paper trimmer and am looking into getting a high end photo printer which will have the same quality and longevity as getting the images done at the photolab this will speed up the service as I won't need to go to the photolab and then kill an hour or have to pick up the images the next day.

    Talking to PSA/DNA to reduce costs is something I will do if things get really busy and I'm submitting large quantities often enough to make it a good idea to give me a break..

    I thought of the idea of different templates and it will be something I'm almost certain I will be offering in the near future. Your other ideas are good and I appreciate them. Thanks very much for your insight.




    Zef,

    I am going to look into licensing.. I have a little already. If it costs too much though making the cost to make the cards too high for people then the logos won't be used any more. Thanks.



    - Garret
    image
  • SouthsiderSouthsider Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭
    This is not legal advice and should not be construed as such, but is an observation:

    I'd like to reiterate what has already been said regarding the use of copyrighted, trademarked, and otherwise protected pictures, team names, logos, etc. Be careful. Intellectual property enforcement is brutal these days and all it would take is a quick email to the licensing division of MLB or NHL properties to get their attention. Copyrights are particularly onerous because there are minimum penalties that apply by statute, simply by proving a violation. Commercial use (selling for profit) does not look good to courts or attorneys. Just an FYI.
  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Posts: 1,794 ✭✭


    << <i>This is not legal advice and should not be construed as such, but is an observation:

    I'd like to reiterate what has already been said regarding the use of copyrighted, trademarked, and otherwise protected pictures, team names, logos, etc. Be careful. Intellectual property enforcement is brutal these days and all it would take is a quick email to the licensing division of MLB or NHL properties to get their attention. Copyrights are particularly onerous because there are minimum penalties that apply by statute, simply by proving a violation. Commercial use (selling for profit) does not look good to courts or attorneys. Just an FYI. >>



    Absolutely. I have dealt quite a bit in copyrights and you are clearly in violation. Right now you are small potatoes but you will get noticed.
  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Posts: 1,794 ✭✭

    The following are trademarks or service marks of Major League Baseball entities and may be used only with permission of Major League Baseball Properties, Inc. or the relevant Major League Baseball entity: Major League, Major League Baseball, MLB, the silhouetted batter logo, World Series, National League, American League, Division Series, League Championship Series, All-Star Game, and the names, nicknames, logos, uniform designs, color combinations, and slogans designating the Major League Baseball clubs and entities, and their respective mascots, events and exhibitions.
  • rvcrvc Posts: 559 ✭✭
    knuckles - they are awesome! i have to figure out who i want now
    Bob
  • KnucklesKnuckles Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭
    I appreciate the concern and after researching it a lot today I've come to the conclusion of 'bleh, this sucks.'

    I'm thinking no more logos at all. It's not profitable enough to go through the whole ordeal of getting rights to use MLB, NBA, NFL, PGA etc.. logos.

    I can have the players jersey number on one side and a baseball, bat, or base on the other or hockey sticks.. football.. depending on what sport the player featured is from. What do you guys think? It's not quite the same but it will look attractive still nonetheless. Anymore ideas?
    image
  • tkd7tkd7 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭
    Just a thought.....while you can't use logos, is there anything that says you can't use a combination of the team's colors along with the name of the appropriate city?

    I'll leave the creative aspect to you, but I don't see why you couldn't use that combination.
  • Do the copyrights include folded teams. Example Paige played for the St. Louis Browns. That team no longer exsists right.
  • tkd7tkd7 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭
    I'm sure MLB has rights to defunct logos as well, given all the throwback material available.

    On the other hand, I think Negro League logos aren't protected.
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi Ryan
    Sorry I was late to the party this week...super card! Garrett did a great job as usual. I saw the card when he made it but was waiting for you to have it certified.

    I can't think of a cooler way to display a cut sig!

    mike
    Mike
  • Knuckles, what can I say? You make each new card better than the last. Hope you don't get too bogged down in all this copyright stuff and lose interest. I am sure you would keep doing it for yourself but the rest of us would be deprived of the joy of seeing them. I can vaguely recall a list you put up once on how you do all this and would love to read it again for my own edification. I would appreciate any help with the link fromk anyone.
    Thanks,
    Rich
    Just glad to be here with everyone.
  • Thanks Mike. I saw it go through the process too and was a little nervous while it was at PSA even though me and Garrett both thought it looked very similar to PSA/DNA'ed autos of his on ebay. As for the topic of copyright laws I'm sure it might be a big deal if I was to sell the card, but that's not going to happen. Atleast not until I lose my job and am dieing of hunger image. I'm sure it needs to be looked into for future cards though. Thanks again everyone!
    Ryan
  • KnucklesKnuckles Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Rich,

    I can't find the link but this image pretty much tells all.. I use Adobe Photoshop and Corel Draw sometimes as well for the designs. I get the images printed at a photolab..

    image
    image
  • jimq112jimq112 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭
    Beautiful cards, I'm interested in getting some old Packers cards done - herber, blood mcnally, maybe nitschke? I was reading about copyrights, why can't you do what they did in the 70s and 80s with unlicensed cards? They airbrushed out the logo on the hat or used a pic where the player had no hat or was looking sideways. I have a 1970 Milton Bradley Clemente that shows him in a black cap with no Pirates logo. I'm sure you can find more attractive photos to use but it's an example. Clemente

    At the very least you wouldn't be getting jammed up about the logo.
    image
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