POLAND GOLD CHROBRY 10 ZL PCGS MS 66 POLISH COIN

docday2003

Hi, does anyone know anything about this coin? Mintages, value, etc?
thanksText

gxseries

Link does not work, please edit it, or add it in. Thanks

docday2003

link

lordmarcovan

Nice toning on that one.

My Krause is in the other room. Hang on...

gxseries

Meh, at coinvault.com, they listed both of 10 and 20 Zl for 370dollars. Therefore... that 10zl can't be that high unless the grade factor is that rare. But yes, nice toning there.

docday2003

I usually only collect canadian coins, but this one seems nice, and fairly affordable so far....

docday2003

<< <i>Meh, at coinvault.com, they listed both of 10 and 20 Zl for 370dollars. Therefore... that 10zl can't be that high unless the grade factor is that rare. But yes, nice toning there. >>



who is Meh?

gxseries

Pardon me there, "meh" just my form of expression of "hum", if you like the explaination.

docday2003

<< <i>Pardon me there, "meh" just my form of expression of "hum", if you like the explaination.

>>



Aaaah...I thought maybe there was a gold expert working there with the initials MEH.

gxseries

Don't you like the quick response in this forum

lordmarcovan

The 10-Zlotych is KM(Y) #32. 50,000 were struck in .900 fine gold, with a bullion weight of .0933 oz. 2004 Krause value for a generic UNC is $100.

The 20-Zlotych is KM(Y) #33. 27,000 were struck in .900 fine gold, with a bullion weight of .1867 oz. 2004 Krause value for a generic UNC is $185.

I've always liked this design, though I have never owned one.

Note that Krause says these were never released into circulation, though, so their being Mint State isn't that special- ALL survivors should be Mint State. As to MS66 in a PCGS slab being worth a premium? I dunno. It's up to you. I'd say a PCGS MS66 with nice toning should be worth a little premium over Krause.

They're nice little coins.

docday2003

<< <i>

Don't you like the quick response in this forum >>



yep

docday2003

<< <i>The 10-Zlotych is KM(Y) #32. 50,000 were struck in .900 fine gold, with a bullion weight of .0933 oz. 2004 Krause value for a generic UNC is $100.

The 20-Zlotych is KM(Y) #33. 27,000 were struck in .900 fine gold, with a bullion weight of .1867 oz. 2004 Krause value for a generic UNC is $185.

I've always liked this design, though I have never owned one.

Note that Krause says these were never released into circulation, though, so their being Mint State isn't that special- ALL survivors should be Mint State. As to MS66 in a PCGS slab being worth a premium? I dunno. It's up to you. I'd say a PCGS MS66 with nice toning should be worth a little premium over Krause.

They're nice little coins. >>



thanks for the info. I guess it all comes down to the price!

mrearlygold

It's a nice one and I just found out that 120 won't buy it



Tom

hyperizer

I had a really gorgeous NGC MS64 one that I bought retail for $145. I sold it on eBay a couple of months ago for a bit less

mrearlygold

<< <i>I had a really gorgeous NGC MS64 one that I bought retail for $145. I sold it on eBay a couple of months ago for a bit less >>










I have a bunch of those in 64 and I also bought the one in Eliasberg ( paid the moon).

I like em. Trying to put a couple rolls of each together which is pretty easy from a standpoint of availability although the 20's are not as easy it seems. Wanna really go crazy, try finding the Solidarity coins ( in silver). Tough! Or the Solidarity in gold ( Arghhh!)

Sucks sometimes being a collector based dealer. Can't keep them all. Thank heavens for world coins!

Tom

1jester

This ebay coin is a nice one, and they don't all come this way. This one appears to have nearly proof-like qualities to it, and I'd recommend buying it.

I sold an extremely nice (raw, but certainly MS66+) one in 1998 to some rip-off dealer (who is now a forum member) for his roll hoard for $45 because I was in a desparate situation and "It's 'generic bullion,' so I can't pay more than bullion value." I also sold a bunch of other gold to the same rip-off artist and he gave me XF money for AU and Unc coins. Needless to say, I won't ever deal with him again.

theboz11

They come in yellow and red gold, the yellow gold is quite a bit rarer.

secondrepublic

I've seen the 10 zlotych MS 66's sell in the $175 to $200 range recently on eBay. The MS 65's maybe around $150.

However, they're not rare even in MS 66 - the NGC site says over 115 have been graded in 66 and in MS 65 they've graded 286. Don't know how many PCGS has graded. These weren't in circulation, so many of them are in great condition. When the bulk of these came out of government vaults in the 1990s, a lot of the nicer ones were submitted by dealers in bulk to NGC, and some to PCGS.

Anything higher than 66 seems to be rare, though - I've only seen a 67 for sale once and NGC says it's graded just five in 67 and none higher.

The 20 zl. gold in 66 is much harder to find - NGC says it's graded only 14 of those.

I wouldn't go overboard bidding on this coin, if you wait a week or two you'll see another 66 on eBay.

SYRACUSIAN

Jester,

why don't you ask that dealer to buy back this coin today?

mrearlygold

<< <i>I've seen the 10 zlotych MS 66's sell in the $175 to $200 range recently on eBay. The MS 65's maybe around $150.

However, they're not rare even in MS 66 - the NGC site says over 115 have been graded in 66 and in MS 65 they've graded 286. Don't know how many PCGS has graded. These weren't in circulation, so many of them are in great condition. When the bulk of these came out of government vaults in the 1990s, a lot of the nicer ones were submitted by dealers in bulk to NGC, and some to PCGS.

Anything higher than 66 seems to be rare, though - I've only seen a 67 for sale once and NGC says it's graded just five in 67 and none higher.

The 20 zl. gold in 66 is much harder to find - NGC says it's graded only 14 of those.

I wouldn't go overboard bidding on this coin, if you wait a week or two you'll see another 66 on eBay. >>












I don't know how much stock I'd put on pop reports of these. I'd bet that pops are going to continue to increase. Whereas 1jester apparently met and did business with someone who thought of these as strickly bullion, I don't think whoever that was ( is ? ) was off base in 1998. They are a common coin. I bought my first Solidarity silver around that time and paid 10 bucks for it raw from a world coin dealer. It's now in a 65PL holder. No idea of it's real worth but is sure a lot more than 10 bucks..

I remember being offered these things from a dealer in Chicago though......at not much more than what 1jester sold his for and I passed.

Wish I knew then what I know now.

1jester

<< <i>Jester,

why don't you ask that dealer to buy back this coin today? >>



No thanks, Dimitri. Not only is his word completely worthless, but I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to have any contact with him ever again (unless, of course, he were to ask for my forgiveness and wire me the $2500 he cheated me out of). It's not worth my time, even to think about. It's water under the bridge, and I know good and well that he'll get his one day.

secondrepublic

I don't know how much stock I'd put on pop reports of these. I'd bet that pops are going to continue to increase. Whereas 1jester apparently met and did business with someone who thought of these as strickly bullion, I don't think whoever that was ( is ? ) was off base in 1998. They are a common coin. I bought my first Solidarity silver around that time and paid 10 bucks for it raw from a world coin dealer. It's now in a 65PL holder. No idea of it's real worth but is sure a lot more than 10 bucks..

I agree that these are common coins - no doubt about that. The pop. reports show that. however, I doubt you will see a lot more 67 and 67+ coins. I think what happened in the mid-1990s when these all came on the market was that dealers sent the best ones in to be certified. The unslabbed ones are often just leftovers from that which in the dealer's eyes wouldn't have even made 65 - they're probably more in the 63 and 64 category.

I haven't seen a raw one which I would grade higher than 65 in a long time (if ever).

Even the Eliasberg 10 zl. was graded a 65 by NGC. You'd think if there were better ones out there when he acquired it in the early 70s he would have gotten a higher grade. His 20 zl. was graded 64.

The good news is that a MS 66 coin is darn nice coin - a lot better quality than you'll see for most other coins from Poland of that period.
I think those coins were bouncing around in bags for a few decades, and you probably won't see any reaching higher than 67.

mrearlygold

I'd love to get a couple of 67's. I'm the guy that one one of the Eliasberg coins. I can't remember if it was the 10 orthe 20 but I'll look in the safe later to check. I was po'd that I didn't get both.

See any of the older Solidarity coins anywhere??


Tom

MacCrimmon

<< <i>However, they're not rare even in MS 66 - the NGC site says over 115 have been graded in 66 and in MS 65 they've graded 286. Don't know how many PCGS has graded. >>




PCGS No: 556716
Date: 1925
Denom: 10 Zl
Variety:
Desig: MS
63: 4
64: 52
65: 68
66: 40
67: 0 ........

Only 40 have been graded as MS66 by PCGS. I wouldn't put any stock in NGCs MS67 grades on these pieces.....nil

secondrepublic

I only saw a 67 for sale once, on a Polish auction website (for a 10 zl). I think bidding got up to about $300 or so but didn't reach the reserve. I think there are 5 of the "67" 10 zl. coins in an NGC holder. NGC says that only one 20 zl. has been graded 67, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to come on the market.

In my own collection, I have a 10 zl. and 20 zl. NGC, both in 66. I got them four or five years ago, someone listed them on eBay for $330 and I was the only bidder. Times have changed... probably that set would be around $500 today. Not that I'm selling it. :-)

The Eliasberg 10 and 20 zl. coins were a bit "over market" in price, but considering the pedigree the prices weren't too bad. Eliasberg only had a half-dozen Polish gold coins, and those were the only ones for under a thousand. One of his 5 ducat pieces sold for (as I recall) around $50,000, which is really way, way over market for that coin - probably 5x what it should sell for.

When I heard about the Eliasberg sale, I was really hoping there would be a gold pattern or two. Polish gold patterns from the 20s and 30s are just unbelievably rare. But no luck. About once or twice a decade one comes on the market.

secondrepublic

MacCrimmon, that means there are over 150 NGC/PCGS graded "66s," and over 350 NGC/PCGS graded "65s". That's about 500 of these coins in 65 and 66 holders. So clearly the 10 zl. is not even close to being a rare coin in choice condition, relative to the number of collectors out there. And there are a whole lot of 10 zl. out there that have never even been submitted for grading. Since these coins weren't in circulation and were (to my understanding) held in bank vaults until long after the war, pretty much all of them should be some kind of UNC, unless a few have been impaired here and there.

I would actually hazard a guess that the 10 zl. from 1925 is the most common Second Republic coin in uncirculated condition, period, except for a few of the silver and bronze coins from the late 30s which didn't see much circulation (b/c World War II started in '39). The other thread on the 10 zl. woman's head coins from 1932 and 1933 really makes the point. Those coins have mintages in the six and seven figures, but it's pretty hard to find those coins in UNC at any price. The 10 zl. 1925 in gold has a mintage of 50,000, reported, but probably almost all of them survived and 90%+ are in UNC. Which is a lot of coins.

MacCrimmon

SecondRepublic, also consider that NGCs POP Reports for World coins have not been updated in over 2 years which I personally know of. That 1911 Swiss franc which I submitted in August of 2003 and then later sold has yet to show up in their Census....FWIW.

secondrepublic

That's exactly right - I have bought and sold a number of NGC coins that aren't in their census. Stacks auctioned a Polish coin in 1999 or 2000, a Constitution, in an NGC holder, that still isn't on the census. So NGC not updating it probably goes back more than 2 years.

I do think that the census captures most of the Polish 10 zl. and 20 zl. gold coins though. Almost all of the ones you see on eBay are in the older NGC holders (the older style label and hologram). I think what happened was that a lot were submitted by dealers in the late 90s. A dealer friend of mine bought a bunch of these (maybe 30 or 40) slabbed in grades 64 to 66 a few years ago and sold them off slowly. Another seller a few years ago was listing them every week.

Probably they're still going into NGC and PCGS, but at a slower rate.

Lynch

<< <i>Since these coins weren't in circulation and were (to my understanding) held in bank vaults until long after the war >>



What happened to these during the war? Were they stolen or somehow secretly hidden away and not found?

Given the looting of art and coin collections which took place in occupied countries, it seems improbable that Polish bank vaults would have been considered off-limits and left untouched by either the Nazi or Soviet occupiers.

secondrepublic

I have heard a couple of stories about these coins, which I'll summarize below. The first thing to note is that 10 and 20 zl. gold coins dated 1925 were the only gold coins (except for a miniscule number of gold patterns) struck in Poland between World War I and World War II.

When the war broke out in 1939, they were sent on a "gold train" along with some other valuables across the border to Romania. Obviously a lot of Poland's valuables stayed in the country and many were looted by the Nazis and later the Soviets. But these coins were not. At the time, in 1939, Romania and Poland shared a border (which is no longer the case), and Romania was basically neutral. Shortly thereafter, the coins went to Britain and then ended up in Canada for the duration of the war.

Long after the war, sometime in the 1960s or 1970s, they were returned to Poland. The communist Polish government then sold these pieces through its small chain of "dollar" stores. When I was there in the mid-80s, these were called "Pewex" stores. In these special stores, you could buy all kinds of things, mainly Western goods like coffee, chocolate, diapers, etc. - but only if you were lucky enough to have dollars or other Western currency. Wikipedia has a great entry on Pewex. People in Poland had dollars, usually sent by relatives from abroad, and they could spend them in those shops for stuff they really wanted. As an aside, I remember getting a couple of 1930s U.S. silver certificates in those Pewex shops as change when my mother bought stuff for our relatives - this was in the mid-1980s! I still have them. Just goes to show what a closed economy it was back then.

The regular Polish stores, of course, didn't sell much of anything that anyone wanted, and they certainly didn't sell these coins. So that's how some of these coins got out.

The rest of them appear to have been released by the government in the mid-1990s as a way to raise some money, either for budget reasons or because they needed money to get their military up to NATO standards for the 1997 accession. So that's how they got out.

I got all of this history second and third hand, so if anyone can add to it or correct it, I'd be much obliged.

1jester

I can't improve on John's synopsis of how the Chrobry coins were saved from the ravages of the war; I believe his story is correct but I don't know any specifics.

I'd like to note that the Pewex stores were rather exclusive in that very few people had access to foreign (hard) currency, and thus these stores remained completely out of reach for the vast majority of Polish people. It's true that some people were able to receive money from abroad, but from my research it's apparant that Pewex was an ultra-luxury store reserved for the very select few.

secondrepublic

1jester is totally right that the Pewex stores were exclusive. At the time, pre-1989, the average person's salary, when converted into US Dollars at the black market rate, was maybe $20 a month. And while some people had relatives living abroad, the vast majority of the population had no access to hard currency and hence couldn't buy anything at all in a Pewex store. Moreover, it was illegal to privately buy or sell US Dollars or other "hard currency" except at official government rate. That is to say, you could sell the government dollars at a rip-off rate, and you had to exchange a certain number at that rate when you entered the country. The government, of course, wouldn't sell you dollars at any rate.

We visited Poland in the mid-80s, and I've been back there four or five times since then, and things have clearly improved for most people - though not for everyone, particularly the elderly and poor. In the 80s, it was really shocking the level at which even what you would call middle class or well-educated people were forced to live.

It is an irony of communism that communism created class divisions sharper than almost anything we see in the West. The Pewex stores were one thing, but at least theoretically anyone could shop there, so long as he/she had some hard currency. I don't think anyone in Poland had any complaints about the Pewex stores being around. While most people had no dollars, at least theoretically anyone could shop there. On the other hand, there were also stores reserved for the communist elite, where only members of the communist party could shop (using zlotys) and buy things unavailable to the masses - including Western goods. Those communist-only stores were the source of a good deal of justified anger by the public.

Lynch

Thank you for the information. These coins have a very interesting history.

docday2003

thanks for the history lesson and pop report numbers etc everyone!