Any 1984-85 Star bkb fans?

zef204

I just sent in some cards to be graded from GAI and I must admit I am a little disappointed from the grades. They all looked pretty good by centering and corners and I thought they all had a shot at a 9. The Jordan #101 I thoght was a little o/c but I thought an 8 was well within reach.

here are the grades and I will post scans if this thread doesn't go POOF:


Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 101 MICHAEL JORDAN 10281779 7.5
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 195 MICHAEL JORDAN 10281780 7
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 1 LARRY BIRD 10281781 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 2 DANNY AINGE 10281782 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 12 LARRY BIRD 10281783 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 76 DOMINIQUE WILKINS 10281784 7
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 113 TOM CHAMBERS 10281785 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 125 TERRY CUMMINGS 10281786 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 165 CLYDE DREXLER 10281787 7.5
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 172 MAGIC JOHNSON 10281788 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 173 KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR 10281789 9
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 181 BYRON SCOTT 10281790 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 184 JAMES WORTHY 10281791 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 202 CHARLES BARKLEY 10281792 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 235 JOHN STOCKTON 10281793 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 257 SAM PERKINS 10281794 7.5
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 237 AKEEM OLAJUWON 10281795 7.5
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 10 ROBERT PARISH 10281796 9
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 287 ISIAH THOMAS 10281797 8
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 265 BILL LAIMBEER 10281798 8.5
Bsktball 0 1984-85 Star 261 ISIAH THOMAS 10281799 8
Bsktball 0 1985-86 Star 117 MICHAEL JORDAN 10281777 8
Bsktball 1986 Star Michael Jordan 5 1985 ALL-STAR 10281778 8.5


I find it odd that besides the Barkley, all the rookies or high dollar cards were less than an 8. These were all in plastic sheets since I got the set in 1986 and I never took them out. I am disappointed that I feel that GAI more closely scrutinzes "star" cards than the lesser cards. This is a legitimate gripe and I am pretty good at amateur grading and picking out the winners and I think that GAI shouldn't look at the name on the card when they grade. I submitted a big order when they first opened shop and I remember thinking the same thing and I was never going to use them again. But they are the only ones who grade these Star cards so my hands were tied. The one 9 I got was an after thought because I thought it was borderline the condition the others were.

OK off my milkbox. I am planning on selling this set and I thought that grading the top cards would legitimize the set. I know there has been a lot of fakes and the hand cutting and all that I wasn't going to try to sell the set raw.


If you want you want to see the SUB the number is 1002263.

Any thoughts or feedback is appreciated.

TheCARDKid

I was a pretty big collector of Star basketball 10-12 years ago.

The '85's can be very tough with the colored borders and the centering. I've never seen a perfectly centered mint Olajuwon rookie. The centering on the Jordan's is a nightmare esp #195 and #288. The #101's and 195's are extremely tough in Mint 9. Tougher than his 86 Fleer rookie in Mint 9.

I've been debating about getting back into the market with these cards. I thought maybe all the Star cards would come out of the closet, increasing the Mint 9 numbers (for bags as well) and driving down some of the high premiums for cards graded early. For now I'm in the watch and wait mode.

I'd be curious to see some of the scans (esp the #101 Jordan and Olajuwon).

ndleo

Did Santa Monica Sportscards ever get into grading their Star Card inventory? Last time I was in their shop, they had a ton of Star. They could create a market if they had their inventory graded.

I think Steve Taft is the person GAI uses to consult on Star Cards. I still wonder how he does it since it is my understanding that the scumbag who reprinted the set used the same plates, ink, and paper. Maybe the reprints are perfect?

Anyways it saddens me that one of the truly great sets in the hobby was hurt by an idiot. It was my opinion that if the reprints were exactly like the originals, then the market should have valued the set based on the total number of cards available. The idiot was convicted in court, he should have stated how many sets were reprinted.

brianwintersfan

<< <i>I still wonder how he does it since it is my understanding that the scumbag who reprinted the set used the same plates, ink, and paper. Maybe the reprints are perfect? >>



Would anyone feel confident buying these even if graded?? There must be some way to tell if GAI is willing to lay it on the line and grade them.

AkbarClone

I never collected them back in the day,and have not bought any yet because of fear of getting a counterfeit-- but have now decided to go ahead and get some for my player collections. If you throw them up on eBay, there are 5 you have that I need. I'm willing to trust GAI at this time, because I do not intend to resell them--so even if a counterfeit slipped through GAI grading, I guess it won't matter too much because I'll never know anyway and will not be passing them on to anyone else.
Thanks for sharing.

p.s. if you have more raw 84-85 Star cards that were either not worth grading or were common players not worth the expense, please send me a PM and I can give you a list of cards that I need.

RedHeart54

From what I understand, the counterfeit cards were also produced in team bags. I would think it would be possible to decipher the plastic of the original bags from that of the newer bags. (Then again, maybe he had the original plastic bags from the original sets and used those.)

ndleo

bwfan - I've been skeptical of GAI's Star grading. They need to at least let the hobby know some of the ways to tell if a Star is legit. They don't need to give away the shop, but one or two tips would be nice. The mere fact PSA and BGS stay away concerns me.

Until then it's almost like trusting the wizard behind the curtain. If GAI determines your Star card is a reprint, do they tell you why?

eadams24

I like GAI as a company and am glad they grade Star cards, but have to agree that the grades seem arbitrary. I have had a lot of Star cards graded and I have 7s that could be 9s and 9s that could be 7s.

aro13

I believe Taft does the authenticating for GAI on the Star Company cards.

Crosner of Santa Monica used to authenticate for SCD on the Star Company cards. When the Star Company sold off the remaining items in their warehouse I believe he bought most of what they had left.

brianwintersfan

Thanks ndleo. I totally agree with what you said.
Even though they fill an interesting void from where Topps stopped and Fleer started I wish we did have a better explanation of what GAI looks for to determine if they are legit or not. You would think that they would get more submissions if collector's were confident that they knew what they were doing.
Has anyone ever talked to them at a show about this?? Have they ever issued a statement about these.
And would you feel any better buying the ones graded by the old SCD??

zef204

<< <i>I have 7s that could be 9s and 9s that could be 7s. >>

My sentiments exactly.

TheCARDKid

Not all of the Star cards were reprinted. That's the problem with the series. Everything has this dark cloud over it, when most were never reprinted.

The prices for some raw bags has remained quite strong ('84 Mavs, '84 Celtics, '85 Olajuwon, and the subsets like the Crunch n Munch). The '85 Arena SP Bob Lanier was never touched. It's still a rare card worth a few hundred dollars.

To compound the problem, some subsets were released in the 90's as "newly discovered", only to be found as counterfeit. You see them every now and then for sale...a white border #101 Jordan, an '86 Crunch n Munch set, '86 Bulls Arena Set. What a mess.

ndleo

If the reprints and originals card used the same materials and process, the market should just count them all equal and adjust ALL of the prices accordingly.

The net effect of increased liquidity in the market may balance out some of the value reductions.

I am ready to collect Star since they do fill a void for basketball collectors, but I won't do it until PSA or BGS get into the market.

eadams24

Steve Taft trains GAI employees on what to look for on Star cards and works with them when there is a dispute. I think GAI does a great job authenticating Star cards and I would trust that 99.9% of their cards are in fact authentic.

Also, in response to I've never seen a perfectly centered mint Olajuwon rookie.

if you do...it's fake. There are no centered Olajuwon star RC. As far as the grades, I think GAI is kind of all over the board, but I do respect their authentication.

Stone193

As a lot of you guys know, SCD ran a nice article on some Star Cards and other counterfeits a few weeks back - I took the time to scan the article - it didn't get much play.

For those who knew very little about how to ID these "bad" cards, I found the article to be one of the better ones in a while.

I think you will find some of these scans very helpful! Link to the post.

mike

brianwintersfan

Thanks Stone

Griffins

I asked Mike Baker about these when I was down there last month, because I thought no one graded them (I don't collect basketball). He said it was really easy to tell the reprints from the originals, and offered to show me, but I had a bunch of other questions about baseball stuff and needed to get going.
If you have questions about the grades call them, they are pretty accessible.

Stone193

There's another issue here that I remember from years ago.

There were articles about the fact that the plates may not have been destroyed and that they were "reused" later on which pumped up the population of the product?

Does anyone remember this - thus, these would not be counterfeits but rather "more of the same" cards?

That's why some people abandoned the product all together - this is what I remember.

mike

kingraider75

well I guess if you somehow got all the Topps Printing Plates that they insert, you could make yourself a card. I don't have the knowledge, money or ability to do this. But I bet someone could wait for all the printings presses of a star player to hit the market and then buy them up. Nice resell value, depending on how much it costs to produce a card.

Sugar20

Even if you had all the printing plates to the 1952 Topps set there would be very little chance of you ever matching the ink, gloss, paper stock, etc. The same applies to Star. The original owner - Levin - had the original plates, but they are very easy to spot the reprints from the originals. The fakes are smaller (the originals are always bigger than standard size), the fakes have an extra coat of gloss on the front, which once you see a fake vs. real next to each other you'll be able to spot them immediately, and the real ones always have a little color bleed on the back, while the fakes don't (what i mean by this is that if the border is red on the front, a little red/pink will show up around the edges on the white back). they didn't re-print all of them, just a few different sets, like the third year and the jordan 10-card set. Also, I've bought from Taft in the past and he knows his stuff. I would trust any old SCD stuff and any GAI stuff because he's way too detailed and careful to let these guys make mistakes.

shagrotn77

I just sold an '84 Stockton rookie and an '85 Ewing rookie, both SCD 9, for around $400 on eBay. I still have an '83 Drexler (SCD 9 UT) and an '83 I. Thomas (SCD 10), but they are staying put for now. By the way, these are the real, now defunct SCD. Not the ridiculous new knockoff company. It's really too bad that SCD stopped grading Star cards because they were the best. Even though the same guys are over at GAI, the grading is nonetheless much more inconsistent.

Allen

Anyone noticed the increase in raw Jordan 101s on ebay. Most are going for $175-$350 so I imagine they are all fake.

Stone193

Sugar
Welcome to the boards!

I agree about the 52T scenario. But this is mid - 80s stuff and the rumor was that they let the presses fly again in the early 90s, I believe. Same printer? Same stock and ink lot? Surely a possiblilty. I don't have the article, unfortunately from SCD back around 1995?...but at that point a lot of people didn't want to have anything to do with the product since the 2nd printing looked very similar to the first....that's what the report was...does anyone remember this? Or something like that?

I'm not trying to kill the set...just discussing what I remember...and not well either!LOL

mike

Sugar20

Thanks Stone. I read the posts pretty much every day, but never took the time to register.

Anyway, I remember the articles about it. Steve Levin got sued by the NBA for turning the presses back on and printing a bunch of other sets that were pawned off as warehouse finds. They were dated in the mid-80s with all the other stuff, but actually printed in 1991 or so. Stuff like Best of the New and i think a magic 10-card set. I've seen enough star stuff that i can spot the fakes from across the room (only a slight exaggeration). If we were in the same room and I had examples, you'd feel confident in your abilities to spot fakes in about five minutes. Like I said, the fakes are standard size and the real ones are always a little bigger, the fakes don't have color bleed on the back while the real ones do and the fakes have a little more gloss on the front. I agree that he may have used the same plates and presses, but he got sloppy on the second run of them....actually he was sloppy with the first and better on the second, but they don't match. If i can find a bad one and a good one of the same card, i'll try to post a scan or something....

By the way, there's a ton of horrible counterfeit star stuff being sold right now. It's not the second run that Levin did in 1991, but new stuff being printed that doesn't match the fonts. It's always being sold in Gem, Capitol or other off-brand grading companies. Check out this guy's fake listings:

a bunch of fake crap

Stone193

If you guys go back to page 1, I linked to a post I made on a recent SCD article on fakes stuff.

Here's an example:



mike

joeyuk

Speaking of '84 star can anyone tell me about these ?