Well, they say always buy the coin and not the plastic...
coinpictures
Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
This one didn't sell the last time it was offered, and no one else bid on it this time. I think it's a drop-dead gorgeous coin, and nicer than the slab indicates. It looks to have some hairline issues, but in terms of aesthetic appeal, it has a lovely PL appearance; very bright white with just a hint of rainbow toning at the periphery.
What am I missing? (Even if there is a problem, there's a 15-day return privelege, so I'm not worried).
-Dan
What am I missing? (Even if there is a problem, there's a 15-day return privelege, so I'm not worried).
-Dan
0
Comments
I own some coins that have been cleaned, and was willing to accept that, based on the extreme cost for an original coin, and
many times the difficulty in finding one. In a case like this you would want to be paying XF money for this SEGS MS-60 coin,
cause of the cleaning, most TPG may not graded it at all, but ANACS would net-grade it.
All in all I like the coin, though I don't know much about this series nor do I collect them.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
Too much?
-Dan
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
I mainly collect Russian coins, but you know, trying to find a proof-like coin or any such coins in such grade is a nightmare considering the prices
If fact, it does appear cleaned although it has unz. details. From the image, I would net grade the coin as AU55. Ordinarily, it would trade wholesale at about $100-125.
A certifiable Zur. 20 batz. which is a 'no problems' MS63 would still only retail for about $250. This coin is actually fairly common in high grades.
<< <i>$295 is too much for that coin in that grade.
If fact, it does appear cleaned although it has unz. details. From the image, I would net grade the coin as AU55. Ordinarily, it would trade wholesale at about $100-125.
A certifiable Zur. 20 batz. which is a 'no problems' MS63 would still only retail for about $250. This coin is actually fairly common in high grades. >>
Thanks for the information. When you say "MS63 would still only retail for about $250", where are you referring to? Here in the U.S., in Europe, on Ebay? The only reference I could find online is from a dealer selling an ANACS (or NGC, I don't remember which) MS64 for $800. It just seems very unusual to me that "normal" market price for MS classic material would be less than half of Krause; usually Krause is off the ball in the opposite direction (listed prices are too low). What you're telling me (if I understand properly) is that the Krause price is vastly overstated.
I'll wait and see what the coin looks like in person. If I don't like it, I'll simply send it back for a refund.
-Dan
P.S. I will buy net graded AU55 coins this attractive ALL DAY LONG at $100-125. I don't know where they're hiding...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>What you're telling me (if I understand properly) is that the Krause price is vastly overstated. >>
Krause can be overstated or understated, i.e., they state the price for a 1911 1 franc specimen is $900. Where did they derive that info? I ask because I gladly sold one graded SP67 by NGC for about $500. OTOH, much of Krause is understated for Swiss Federal silver (at least in solid MS67 grades and up). Obtain a copy of Money Trends or Numispost for pricing which is vastly more accurate than Krause.
The $250 estimate was a U.S. price based an auction record. Also, IMHO, the $800 is a tad rich for a "64", but hey, I could be wrong. Of Federal issues I have no doubt, Kanton stuff is not a real specialty.....see PM.
Cheers.
In my opinion too, Krause generally lists high prices for (federal) Swiss coins and in particular specimens.It's an exception, in most other countries it's the opposite, but I think they try to fix it by keeping the prices unchanged for the past few years except for the addition of the BU category.
And since the topic came up, without wanting to derail this thread, I'd like to ask Mac or anybody else who might know the answer, why is it that prices and mintages of specimen Swiss coins do not appear in most catalogues? They don't even call them specimens over there, as an example, I see in UBS' next auction's luxurious catalogue (thaler fans will love it), a sp 1937 5 frs,described as Erstabschlag in FDC condition, isn't this the term for first strike? Another example is a 1923 5 frs,again Erstabschlag fast FDC, est. 750 CHF, while the next lot is a simple 1923 5 frs, in vorzuglich-FDC, est 120 CHF.
Also, Swiss specimens look much more like proofs with significant cameo effect, rather than simple first strikes.Hard to imagine that the business strikes were minted from the same dies. And how do they get to price them anyway, what's the "official" Swiss price guide? The references in the catalogue are from HMZ (?) and as usual from J.P.Divo, (just like with Greek coins),but his cats are never updated pricewise.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
However, from auction records, private sales, and many, many years of experience with these EA (Erstabschlag) coins, one can at least glean estimates for these different strikings.
In general, anything which is pre-WWI generally had less than 50 minted in any denomination extant at that time; 1920 to 1939 averaged 50 to 150 depending on the denom; WWII would have the silver mintages in the 150 to 400 range, and the 1950s generally may have stretched to the upper end of that range of 3-400 but again those are general guidelines. Those mintages do vary in differing years, and often the shortage of business strikes for a given year will increase price pressure on the EA strikings.
<< <i>They don't even call them specimens over there, as an example, I see in UBS' next auction's luxurious catalogue (thaler fans will love it), a sp 1937 5 frs,described as Erstabschlag in FDC condition, isn't this the term for first strike? Another example is a 1923 5 frs,again Erstabschlag fast FDC, est. 750 CHF, while the next lot is a simple 1923 5 frs, in vorzuglich-FDC, est 120 CHF. >>
And yes, EA means 'first strike' and probably the first 100 of the dies were DCAM (but PCGS does not designate these as such).....the 1937 5 Fr. you mentioned will probably have a hammer price in the €300 - 360 range (not including the buyers fee and VAT, etc.) depending on just how "WOW" it really is.
On average, you might expect that 1923 5 Fr. EA in fast FDC (roughly a PCGS SP63 or so) to hammer between €1250 - 1500. I see the estimate is at about €1150, so the coin could be a tad bit hairlined but these are akin to the Gothic crowns and have a firm base price, excepting of course if they are more heavily worn as your next example. The '23 in VZ-FDC is a wide ranging condition description which could go AU50 to maybe a baggie "61" type coin.....you would just have to see it to know.
Yes, some do look much more like proofs, especially the minors. The silver issues after WWI tend to have the more obvious "die polish" marks in the fields.
HMZ is akin to the US "Red Book". Money Trends should list EA pricing, but now that you've mentioned it, I need to get some new subscriptions.
I see the estimate is at about €1150, so the coin could be a tad bit hairlined but these are akin to the Gothic crowns
Mac, the estimate is CHF 750, so it's €500, ( €1=1.50 CHF) I guess you have converted them the other way round. A similar mistake last year, cost me the loss of a wonderful Greek 1833 1/4dr ICG MS65 ,as I thought its starting price was €1200, while in reality it was ~ €530 (CHF 800). These estimates are rather low anyway, I practically take them as starting prices, since you cannot place a bid below 80% of them, and by adding the buyer's fees ,VAT and other expenses (+2% for all absentee bids!!), it comes practically to a 100% of their "estimate".
Since we're at it, do you have a suggestion for a bid on a 1850 1/2 franc, fast FDC, est. CHF 220, for my album? By PM of course.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
<< <i>Mac, the estimate is CHF 750, so it's €500 >>
Yes, the estimates do tend toward the 50% mark of the final total.
So they probably netgraded it down to MS60 (all services netgrade lightly cleaned coins, it's just not noted on their holder like Anacs does).
I wouldn't want to be misunderstood here, this coin would certainly get a bodybag from the two major services. But in cases of very light cleaning, or even an unsuccessful dip,or a small rim nick,or any other really minor problem, PCGS and NGC will often downgrade the coin without of course noting it on the holder ,otherwise there would be a huge number of bodybags. Thus, a very lightly cleaned MS64 coin can become MS62 for example, in general I think that this downgrade is no more than one or two points.
If you're not convinced ,just read a few of Laura Sperber's (Legend) posts in the US coin forum on the subject, or her articles in Legend's website: Hot topics { In many lower graded coins (like 62/63) you'll see wear, severe lines, and even bold cleaning }. It's an interesting reading anyway, and a further proof of the title of this thread,because problem coins have often found their way to PCGS and NGC slabs and will continue to do so.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
I'm going to show it to a few people here locally and get their opinions of the coin. I may actually end up keeping it...
-Dan
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Keeper!
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don