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Crack and Sell Raw. Ethical???

I've seen a few posts touch around this topic and just curious how this sits with you guys.
Hypothetical - I by a PRO, or some other low end graded 1955 Koufax. Bust it out and sell it raw. The ones I've followed are doing well with this. Buying cards for $100 and selling them to newbees for $200. They don't lie, distort or make promises. They are very brief with their descripts. They just let the market dictate the price. Just does not sit well with me for some reason. Some sellers are blatant liars with this scam, but what about the ones who don't embellish? I wonder how many sellers are doing this. I know not to by raw...but many people don't. Jez..there are thousands of raw cards sold daily. When I get cards graded, I know there is a cut off point where selling it raw will do better. But...going into it knowing. Something smells.

Comments

  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭
    Totally unethical. 99%+ of cards in PRO holders are garbage, so if you crack and sell, odds are extremely high that you're offering an altered card. A good way to screw an unsuspecting buyer and get them totally discouraged about the hobby after they find out the hard way that they have an altered card. And if you're buying a legitmate card that graded as a 3 because of a couple small spider creases, you crack it and the creases don't show up in the scan and you call the card EX or EX-MT to try to fool someone, that is crappy too.

    I occasionally sell raw cards, and there is nothing wrong with doing that, as long as the seller knows the card is unaltered and provides large scans of the front & back and points out any flaws that aren't visibly noticable in the scans.
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,435 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They don't lie, distort or make promises. >>


    Sounds like a great idea! Looks like EZ money to me? What the heck..."just let the market dictate the price"

    mike
    Mike
  • Kick it up a notch. Scammer buys a SGC 70. Cracks it and sells it raw. Doubles his money. Knows that it won't crossover worth a crap, but knows newbees are looking for a steal. Basically playing on newbees greed.

    Example - #5217805175 - to - #5226156186
    This guy is flat unethical, but others are not so blatant.
  • zef204zef204 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭
    I think it is unethical as well.

    The same seller as above lost money on this one:

    He Bought

    He Sold


    edited to add:He also lost money on this one too:

    He Bought

    He Sold
    EAMUS CATULI!

    My Auctions
  • sagardsagard Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭
    I think that seller is just speculating. He took a chance on the BGS (not BVG) being undergraded and got lucky. Unless of course that card really was hiding a crease. He lost on the Bird/Magic, on that card I don't see why he didn't just improve the scan and resell.

    It's not like we inherintly trust BGS 9.5s, so why should we trust a 4?
  • larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭
    As they taught us in law school ethic's class... if you have to ask if it's ethical you know the answer!
  • SDavidSDavid Posts: 1,584 ✭✭
    If someone truly believes a card is undergraded...not because of tough to see wrinkles or anything but just a card that's undergraded...then I don't have a problem w/ a seller who decides to sell it raw with an honest description of the card's condition. I've seen reputable dealers do this before, and I didn't have a problem with it. There's no law that says a card has to be slabbed and PSA/BGS/SGC etc are all too inconsistent for them to always have the final word. If the card is high-end for its grade, it's very likely that it would grade higher the second time or third time anyway.

    When I get hosed, I just get the card regraded, but I can see why some people wouldn't want to bother with that.

    But I don't agree with taking a regular 4 or a 5 and making it sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Grading companies make mistakes, but they're rarely off by two or three grades. Sadly, though, the 5's and 6's are probably better than most of the vintage raw cards sold on ebay. Maybe that's why the raw card collectors leave positive f/b for this stuff? Everybody here assumes that the buyers are getting the cards to slab them, but I'd bet that the majority of collectors are still raw card collectors.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,292 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Definitely unethical. Same thing as trying to sell any other product without disclosing the known flaws. And in the case of a card which has been trimmed - that is one BIG flaw.
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭
    I see no problem with cracking reputable cards (PSA, SGC) and flipping them raw. If you provide honest scans, and don't try to photoshop them, I have no problem whatsoever in that.

    Now if you are talking about cracking PRO graded cards, which are going to most likely (if not always) altered, then selling those raw, that I have a problem with.

    Nothing wrong with taking advantage of people trying to take advantage of you. If someone wants to speculate on a raw card you're selling, and thinking they can flip it once they get it graded, what's the harm in that?


  • bobbybakerivbobbybakeriv Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭✭
    I think this practice is unethical and I wouldn't do it. There very well may be exceptions but overall, I think it's shady.
  • Carew29Carew29 Posts: 4,025 ✭✭

    Here is one extra problem with cracking it out-- I personally have a 1968 Topps Mantle card that i know is a PSA 9. I have cracked it out on 2 different occasions to see if i could get that 9. Since i didn't, i have kept it in it's PSA 8 holder. If i were to crack it out and try to sell it on ebay i might end up taking a bath on it because of all of the recent scammers claiming "MINT". As for SGC,GAI,PSA cracking, i have sold the ones that came back in 6's and 7's that i cracked out at that grade ( ex/mt to NM) because i could get more for those particular cards ungraded. I also sent back the holders and labels to those companies so they could take them out of their pop reports, unlike alot of people. I have only had two that came back colored and both were 1971 Topps Carews. Which i still have and won't sell on ebay or any other place.
    As long as you are truthful in your description and offer a 100% money back if not happy, this shouldn't even be an issue. What if there were no grading companies today, and Ebay was still here? So that means that if you grade and crack it out because you are not happy this makes you dishonest? The dishonest part would be if you are selling trimmed,colored,doctored cards. As long as there is no other problem than just the grade, i don't see the problem. IMO
  • MorrellManMorrellMan Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭
    Just does not sit well with me for some reason.

    Says it all. It isn't right. Once you know a card isn't right, it doesn't matter what you do or don't say about it - if you don't share that knowledge then you have crossed the line of ethical behavior.

    Cracking a top tier grding company card and selling it as ungraded is fine; if you crack out a 6 and hype it as an oughtabean8 - see above.

    There's no black and white - the time for disclosure is when you think you have something to hide - I like what somebody said here: if you have to ask the question, then you know the answer.
    Mark (amerbbcards)


    "All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
  • MorrellManMorrellMan Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭
    I personally have a 1968 Topps Mantle card that i know is a PSA 9. I have cracked it out on 2 different occasions to see if i could get that 9. Since i didn't, i have kept it in it's PSA 8 holder

    huh?
    Mark (amerbbcards)


    "All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
  • mtcardsmtcards Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭
    I think there are two different lines of reason on this. If you have a PSA 7, but think it might get an eight and you crack it out and it comes back the same seven (which it should if graded properly), you have essentially done what someone else who bought a PSA seven and thinks it is worth an eight has done when he decides to crack it out and sell it as NrMt. The only difference is YOU took the risk and paid for the grading.

    Bottom line is, if you want a PSA 8, BUY IT! The only reason for cracking and selling raw is for profit, those that are buying raw hoping for a high grade are doing it to either save money off buying the grade they want or are trying to make a profit.
    IT IS ALWAYS CHEAPER TO NOT SELL ON EBAY
  • jrdolanjrdolan Posts: 2,549 ✭✭
    In carew29's case, I don't see that it would even work. It may look like a 9, but claiming a raw Mantle is mint on eBay just screams SCAM, or maybe TRIMMED. Thus bidding would be severely restrained. Of all the things that potential bidders might imagine about why it's not already graded, cracking it out of a PSA 8 slab is probably not even among them. He wisely decided that since PSA has twice disagreed with his opinion that it's a 9, its highest value is in a PSA 8 holder.

    I think anyone has the right to crack a card and sell it raw -- though why they would if they're not trying to mislead bidders on the card's true condition is beyond me. I would think a PSA 6, for example, is worth more on the market than a raw card that is claimed "near mint," if only because bidders know it's not trimmed or fake.
  • larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭
    Carew- If you KNOW it's a 9 why does the holder say 8? I am really confused by that statement. Let me break the news to you YOUR MANTLE IS AN EIGHT... OCHO... 8... not 7 and not 9....
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