Jeff collectors: I've officially become a Registry Set ho
DennisH
Posts: 13,996 ✭✭✭✭✭
I started my 1938-64 Jefferson set (non-FS) more than four years ago when my Morgan set was about to be completed. What a joy it was to be able to buy high grade coins -- tied for finest knowns -- for $20, whereas the cheapest coin that would upgrade my Morgan set was $800 or so.
In the Jefferson world, four years ago might as well be the Stone Age. Essentially no one collected non-FS coins back then, so I could pick and choose to my heart's content and almost never have to worry about spending even $100 on any coin. Much to my surprise, when PCGS finally started a non-FS Set Registry category I found my set ranked #1.
Much has changed since then. Non-FS Jeff collecting has become vigorous and healthy, with spirited competition for high grade coins with low pops. Some of these pops have not moved even one iota since I started, PCGS appears to have tightened up on how they grade Jeffs, and opportunities to upgrade my set have become virtually nonexistent. In fact, the last time I was able to make an upgrade was one year ago, with a single coin. In two years I've upgraded three coins. Woo-hoo.
Until last week, that is, when I officially became a pathetic Registry Set whore.
My favorite date in the series is the 1939-S. I made both the MS66 R38 and MS65 R40 that are in my set, and I never pass up the opportunity to look at every example I can find. The PCGS population on the 1939-S R38 in MS67 is 5/0 in non-FS and 0/0 in FS. In 2001 the non-FS pop was 4/0. In the last three years I've been hoping that one of those five coins would come up for sale somewhere, but none ever did. I managed to locate the whereabouts of one of them in the Registry Set of a Jeff friend I've corresponded with for a few years but have never met in person. I've tried to trade him for it, but even when my offer reached $1,000 worth of coins he needed, he wouldn't budge. I can't blame him.
Then along came the Heritage internet only auction last week and there it was -- one of the 5/0 coins. What a P.O.S. it looked like. "Surely this can't be as bad in person as it looks in the scans," I thought. "There are little marks everywhere and there's no eye appeal. The last batch of Jeffs I got back from PCGS -- most of which were MS64s that broke my heart -- look better than this dog."
Yes, I bid on it anyway... and I won, heaven help me... for $393 including tax and shipping. And now that I have it in my hands, I'm afraid it really is a P.O.S.
It's one of those semi-hazy, 100% original early Jeffs with unremarkable lustre, homely toning, and ho-hum eye appeal. My MS66 1939-S puts it to shame. In fact, some of my 65s put it to shame. But there it is in a 67 holder. It may be the worst MS67 Jeff of any date that PCGS has ever graded, and it has to be hands-down the worst of the 5/0 1939-S. If I cracked it out and sent it in raw, it wouldn't surprise me if it came back a 65.
This is the first time I've bought a score instead of a coin, and it doesn't feel good. I'll go ahead and add the 67 to my Registry Set and try to be encouraged that I was able to "upgrade" one coin in 2005, because the next one may be a very, very long time in coming. And I'll definately hang on to my MS66, so I'll have one 1939-S R38 I can be proud of.
In the Jefferson world, four years ago might as well be the Stone Age. Essentially no one collected non-FS coins back then, so I could pick and choose to my heart's content and almost never have to worry about spending even $100 on any coin. Much to my surprise, when PCGS finally started a non-FS Set Registry category I found my set ranked #1.
Much has changed since then. Non-FS Jeff collecting has become vigorous and healthy, with spirited competition for high grade coins with low pops. Some of these pops have not moved even one iota since I started, PCGS appears to have tightened up on how they grade Jeffs, and opportunities to upgrade my set have become virtually nonexistent. In fact, the last time I was able to make an upgrade was one year ago, with a single coin. In two years I've upgraded three coins. Woo-hoo.
Until last week, that is, when I officially became a pathetic Registry Set whore.
My favorite date in the series is the 1939-S. I made both the MS66 R38 and MS65 R40 that are in my set, and I never pass up the opportunity to look at every example I can find. The PCGS population on the 1939-S R38 in MS67 is 5/0 in non-FS and 0/0 in FS. In 2001 the non-FS pop was 4/0. In the last three years I've been hoping that one of those five coins would come up for sale somewhere, but none ever did. I managed to locate the whereabouts of one of them in the Registry Set of a Jeff friend I've corresponded with for a few years but have never met in person. I've tried to trade him for it, but even when my offer reached $1,000 worth of coins he needed, he wouldn't budge. I can't blame him.
Then along came the Heritage internet only auction last week and there it was -- one of the 5/0 coins. What a P.O.S. it looked like. "Surely this can't be as bad in person as it looks in the scans," I thought. "There are little marks everywhere and there's no eye appeal. The last batch of Jeffs I got back from PCGS -- most of which were MS64s that broke my heart -- look better than this dog."
Yes, I bid on it anyway... and I won, heaven help me... for $393 including tax and shipping. And now that I have it in my hands, I'm afraid it really is a P.O.S.
It's one of those semi-hazy, 100% original early Jeffs with unremarkable lustre, homely toning, and ho-hum eye appeal. My MS66 1939-S puts it to shame. In fact, some of my 65s put it to shame. But there it is in a 67 holder. It may be the worst MS67 Jeff of any date that PCGS has ever graded, and it has to be hands-down the worst of the 5/0 1939-S. If I cracked it out and sent it in raw, it wouldn't surprise me if it came back a 65.
This is the first time I've bought a score instead of a coin, and it doesn't feel good. I'll go ahead and add the 67 to my Registry Set and try to be encouraged that I was able to "upgrade" one coin in 2005, because the next one may be a very, very long time in coming. And I'll definately hang on to my MS66, so I'll have one 1939-S R38 I can be proud of.
When in doubt, don't.
0
Comments
It's great to see some honest people on these boards who can tell it like it is! One of two things need to happen here. One is for you to exercise your rights to PCGS's Grade Guarantee and have this coin downgraded to help keep the pops accurate.
Or two, PCGS needs to step up to the plate and take the neccesary steps to correct the situation with you.
If I where them, I would not want that coin in my company holder if there is a strong possibility that the coin turned out to be overgraded.
The last thing you want to do is to sit on the coin and not have it properly graded. You would need to state your case concerning the coin's problems, why you believe the coin does not grade MS67.
Here's another coin that was overgraded. Perhaps it has already been downgraded. Whatever the case, this is a coin that would eventually need upgraded. The hair detail is flat, it grades MS63 or MS64 tops, it's not MS66 calibur coin.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Bruce Scher
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
and it sounds like Heritage photos were right this time
are 66's worth submitting fees?
Sinin -- 1939-S MS66s are in the $100-ish range.
buy for your set.
If/when you get one, then use the grading guarantee for your present coin. If you try now, and
they downgrade it, the pops will become 4/0 and the price for another coin may go a bit higher if
one surfaces.
Of course, PCGS may grade some more 67's and the market-price of your coin could fall.
In any case, if you're not happy with this coin now, chances are good that it's not going to grow on you.
Thanks for the interesting and honest post!
Ken
I have been guilty of the same in the past - buying a coin hoping the coin (picture) does not do it justice, and then being disappointed. Since, I have tried to stay very focused on quailty.
If you look at my 38 - 64 FS set you will notice some obvious coins that could be upgraded. The 52P inot full steps and the 54S in MS63FS.
I have probably examined in person or by photo 75% of the so called PCGS better coins for these dates and have passed on all of them. Poor strikes, overgraded and not even close to full steps were the reasons. While there are certainly nicer coins than the two I have, I will wait. The fun is still in the hunt!
Frank
My Jefferson Full Step Variety Set (1938 - Current)
My Jefferson Proof Variety Set (1938 - Current)
<< <i>Dennis:
I have been guilty of the same in the past - buying a coin hoping the coin (picture) does not do it justice, and then being disappointed. Since, I have tried to stay very focused on quailty.
If you look at my 38 - 64 FS set you will notice some obvious coins that could be upgraded. The 52P inot full steps and the 54S in MS63FS.
I have probably examined in person or by photo 75% of the so called PCGS better coins for these dates and have passed on all of them. Poor strikes, overgraded and not even close to full steps were the reasons. While there are certainly nicer coins than the two I have, I will wait. The fun is still in the hunt!
Frank >>
Ok, a point well made by everyone! Isn't it obvious! I think it's time for someone to host a Photo Registry Set website!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i> I used to test my grading ability by having my wife pull out a hand full of random coins and cover the label. This is where I started to get perplexed. Don/mademan >>
Something like playing flash cards with slabs! lol
Many new Jeff collectors are fast becoming that the TGS's were nothing more then a mere "stepping stone" on their road to searching for the ultimate nickels. It's just taking others longer to realize this, to say, "hey I have a lot of crappy coins in my collection too"!
My collection can be seen through a link in my profile! And I too know that their are a few more better coins out there then what I have. But I keep on collecting anyway.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Dennis, the Downgrade Review is your best option for sure.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Dennis
If it will make you feel any better, go to the Teletrade website and check out a few of those coins. What you'll find is, that a lot of folks spent a whopping lot of money on a lot of crappy coins! Including me but I returned most of mine!
So don't feel so bad......you're definitely not alone!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
It's gratifying -- and a lot less embarrassing -- to know I'm not the only one who's bought coins with high scores with no net under them except hope.
I do plan to keep on looking for one of the other four MS67s that are out there, just like I'm still going to hope for that growth spurt that will finally take me from 5'11" (if I stretch) to 6'3". But at age 50 now it's probably not going to happen. Sadly, neither is one of the other coins.
But I am going to have a bit of fun with the coin at my club meeting Saturday night. Only a handful of people there actually know an obverse from a reverse, let alone have any clue about grading, so I'm going to load the deck on them by covering up the insert stickers and and having them play "arrange the grades from high to low." There will be a PCGS-66, PCGS-65, and PCGS-64 to go along with this 67. Not knowing anything about Jeffs, folks are going to default their choices to eye appeal. I'll be stunned beyond belief if anyone but the two guys who have already seen this P.O.S. put it first.
Thanks again for your comments of support; I feel a lot less "dirty" now.
Checking Heritage and Teletrade, there are 3 1939-D r38s with pics on those websites. I also recall that I sold a 1939-D r38 PCGS MS67 last April in a small auction of Jeffs and I believe you took part in that auction. The 39-D in that auction wasn't designated as a rev. of 38. There are some 60+ 39-Ds in MS67 in all kinds of PCGS slabs out there and they're not all designated as such!
Good luck with your hunt!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
It may have been me who bought that coin! I'm pretty bullish on the whole concept of 1939-Ds in MS67 PCGS holders, which explains why I have three extra R38s.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection