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Safe Advice – A Gun Safe Is NOT a Coin Safe!
Pushkin
Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
There was an news article recently in CoinWorld about a burglary and how a collector/dealer’s safe was “smashed”. The manufacturer of the safe was listed and I was not at all surprised that the thieves demolished the safe. The manufacturer given is a major supplier of gun safes, not security safes.
Gun safes are usually made with a body of SHEET metal (steel), 12 gauge, 14 gauge, etc. and a steel plate (usually 1/4 in or less) for the door. Security safes employ steel PLATE, ¼”, ½”, 1” or greater and often have additional composite material to provide defense against various attacks (drill, torch, peel, etc). Security safes are rated on a letter scale, B, C, D, ... with B being a general catch all for 1/4” body and 1/2” steel door. There is also an Underwriter’s Laboratory rating (UL) such ad TL-15, TL30, and so on. The “15”, “30” , etc. on are measures of a the MINIMUM time it takes a professional to break in, the UL personnel that conduct the tests are pros.
Gun safes usually look pretty and have lots of thick locking bolts that give a false sense of security. Steel sheet metal is easy to break into, the local kid with an axe, crowbar and other tools can get in in no time. That thick fire resistant material between the sheet metal is just that, thick material to provide fire protection, NOT buglary protection.
One half inch or more of hardened steel with a drill resistance hardplate protecting the lock, glass or other relocking devices, drill resistant pellets and fibers between the lawyers of PLATE, and so on will discourage all but the most professional burglars. Time is the key to a good safe, not lots of locking bars.
The best jewelry safes may have a industrial diamond impregnated hardplate, slabs of copper to thwart torch attacks, multiple randomly placed relockers, and even layers (safe within a safe).
I would never store coins in a gunsafe and never buy one of those nice looking safes for sale at coin shows, A fairly “safe” safe is going to cost about $1000 for a good TL-15 safe (500 lbs or more).
Safest place for coins – a safe deposit box in one of those 50 year old bank vault safes that were build to withstand a nuclear attack.
UL Safe Ratings:
1. Test attack against the door and front face:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Deposit Safe
3. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30
2. Test attack against the door and body:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15X6
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30X6
3. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-15X6
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30X6
5. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-60X6
6. Torch-, Explosive-, and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TXTL-60X6
Gun safes are usually made with a body of SHEET metal (steel), 12 gauge, 14 gauge, etc. and a steel plate (usually 1/4 in or less) for the door. Security safes employ steel PLATE, ¼”, ½”, 1” or greater and often have additional composite material to provide defense against various attacks (drill, torch, peel, etc). Security safes are rated on a letter scale, B, C, D, ... with B being a general catch all for 1/4” body and 1/2” steel door. There is also an Underwriter’s Laboratory rating (UL) such ad TL-15, TL30, and so on. The “15”, “30” , etc. on are measures of a the MINIMUM time it takes a professional to break in, the UL personnel that conduct the tests are pros.
Gun safes usually look pretty and have lots of thick locking bolts that give a false sense of security. Steel sheet metal is easy to break into, the local kid with an axe, crowbar and other tools can get in in no time. That thick fire resistant material between the sheet metal is just that, thick material to provide fire protection, NOT buglary protection.
One half inch or more of hardened steel with a drill resistance hardplate protecting the lock, glass or other relocking devices, drill resistant pellets and fibers between the lawyers of PLATE, and so on will discourage all but the most professional burglars. Time is the key to a good safe, not lots of locking bars.
The best jewelry safes may have a industrial diamond impregnated hardplate, slabs of copper to thwart torch attacks, multiple randomly placed relockers, and even layers (safe within a safe).
I would never store coins in a gunsafe and never buy one of those nice looking safes for sale at coin shows, A fairly “safe” safe is going to cost about $1000 for a good TL-15 safe (500 lbs or more).
Safest place for coins – a safe deposit box in one of those 50 year old bank vault safes that were build to withstand a nuclear attack.
UL Safe Ratings:
1. Test attack against the door and front face:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Deposit Safe
3. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30
2. Test attack against the door and body:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15X6
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30X6
3. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-15X6
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30X6
5. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-60X6
6. Torch-, Explosive-, and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TXTL-60X6
0
Comments
<< <i> Do you or any forum members have any recommendations as to which brand to buy? >>
The safe's UL rating is the key.
AmSec
Mutual
Inkas (Super safes at reasonable prices)
Hayman (the MagnaVault is a great series)
There are others,
I also suggest a "honey pot", perhaps one of those Office Depot Sentry fire safes as a decoy. Fill it with your AT jnk and leave where it is easily found.
UL Safe Ratings:
Safe Ratings
Burglary Ratings
* B1 — Theft resistant (minimum security)
* B2 — Underwriters’ Laboratories Residential Security Container label
* B3 — Non-rated anti-theft (incorporates features of high security safes
without a UL rating)
* B4 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-15 label
* B5 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30 label
* B6 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30X6 or TRTL-30 label
Fire Ratings
* FR — Fire resistant unrated insulated safe
* 1/2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 30 minutes with outside temperature of 1550 degrees.
* 1 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with outside temperature of 1700 degrees.
* 1 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with an outside temperature of 1700 degrees, plus survived drop test from 30 feet.
* 2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with an outside temperature of 1850 degrees.
* 2 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with outside temperature of 1850 degrees, plus survived drop test onto rubble from 30 feet
UL Underwriters' Laboratories (UL) - UL is a non-profit, non-bias agency that tests and rates the safety and performance of consumer products. Safes that have earned specific UL ratings will carry a UL label which designates the product's security and fire-protection ratings.
* Net Working Time - This is the UL term for testing time which is spent trying to break into a safe using tools such as diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure applying devices, or common hand tools such as hammers, chisels, saws, and carbide-tip drills. If a safe has been rated with a 30-minute net working time, (TL30), the rating certifies that the safe successfully withstood a full 30 minutes of attack time with a range of tools.
* Theft resistant - This rating means the safe provides a combination lock and minimal theft protection.
* Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
* TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.
* TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.
* TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.
* TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.
Fire Ratings
* Impact test - The UL impact test calls for the safe to be heated to 1550 degrees for 30 minutes (1638 degrees for a 2-hour fire rated safe) then dropped onto concrete rubble from a height of 30 feet. The safe is then turned upside down and reheated for another 30 minutes (45 minutes for a 2-hour fire rated safe). During this process, it must maintain its integrity and protect all contents in order to pass the UL impact test.
* Explosion hazard test - All UL fire-rated safes must undergo this test, during which the unit is inserted into a pre-heated 2000 degree oven. If the safe is not constructed properly, the rapid heating will likely cause an explosion.
* FR - Fire resistant, unrated insulated safe - This product is awaiting UL approval.
* Class 350 1/2-hour fire rating - During this test, the safe is heated for one-half hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees. Because paper will begin to char at approximately 400 degrees, the unit being tested must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees during heat-up and cool-down testing in order to earn its rating.
* Class 350 1-hour fire rating - To earn this rating, the safe is heated for one hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees, then put through the cool-down test. During this time the safe must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees.
* Cool-down test - This procedure is a key part of UL's fire testing procedures. After a one- or two-hour fire rating test, the safe is left in the oven for cool-down time with the heat turned off. Because of the intensive heat of one- and two-hour tests, the temperature inside the safe will continue to rise for up to one hour after the oven is turned off. To pass UL testing, the safe's interior temperature may not exceed 350 degrees at any time during heat-up or cool-down procedures.
* Class 350 1-hour fire & impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 1-hour fire testing (see above).
* Class 350 2-hour fire rating - The safe is heated for two hours to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees and must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees to earn this rating. Class 350 2-hour rating and impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 2-hour fire testing (see above).
1. Test attack against the door and front face:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Deposit Safe
3. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30
2. Test attack against the door and body:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15X6
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30X6
3. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-15X6
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30X6
5. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-60X6
6. Torch-, Explosive-, and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TXTL-60X6
<< <i>" One way to save some money is buy a used safe. CHeck with your local locksmith or safe store. You can save more than 50% on a used/refurbished safe that came out of a jewelry store or the like. >>
Excellent advice! Those jewelry safes with TL-30 ratings are monsters. If you want to really be safe weld a smaller safe inside your used safe - if placed correctly it wll provide excellent protection against "rear" drill attacks. You are looking at 2000lbs plus.
Not cheep but worth it.
Text
edited to add: These guys, I hear, set up at some major coin shows, and offer on-site security for dealers.
<< <i> If you want a safe that with high security, fire safely, and capacity for coins, guns and more. check out Fort Knox safe company. ftknox.com. >>
I have to disagree, most Fort Knox safes are expensive gun safes, they are mostly NOT high security safes. Check the Fort Know specs against the UL security specifications, most aren't even "B" rated" for security.
A good TL-30 rated coin safe and a good gun safe. Never confuse the two.
You get a bigger bang for your buck on larger sizes but will your house take the weight? In Fla we don't have basements and so it becomes a matter of layig steel over the tile floors to prevent destroying the floor moving a larger size safe.
You will not be able to get burglary insurance unless you have a TL-15 or better and a central monitored alarm.
Unless you are in a gated community, or that you HAVE to see your coins everyday, use a safe deposit box at the bank.
And BE CAREFUL. There are scumbags out there who will follow you, your wife, your children and do despicable things to get your coins/money/etc.
Loose lips sink ships.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Unless you are in a gated community, or that you HAVE to see your coins everyday, use a safe deposit box at the bank. >>
Absolutely, by far the best alternative IMO - see my original post. The information on safes was for those collectors who may have a false sense of security because they keep coins in a gun safe.
while i periodically consider buying a home safe, the question that always makes my decision easy is this: Am i more concerned with being able to access my collection at a moments notice or with protecting my collection??
the bank box always wins.
Anybody have safe deposit box insurance? And, what are the exclusions - such as floods (New Orleans!) or terrorism (World trade Center).
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
<< <i>Scenario: someone steals your keys and finds out where your box is, then cleans you out. >>
They would also have to possess the ability to morph in to somebody who looks just like me and can forge my signature. Everybody at my bank knows me. I'm not real worried about your scenario.
Russ, NCNE
Dan
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
<< <i> I recently purchased an Inkas TL 30 6523 safe. >>
The Inkas TL line are GREAT safes. Nice going!
edited. They are super jewelry safes and you often find them in jewelry stores - but you are correct, they are HEAVY.
<< <i>they are HEAVY. >>
<< <i>Safest place for coins – a safe deposit box in one of those 50 year old bank vault safes that were build to withstand a nuclear attack. >>
~A lock only keeps honest people honest~
The safest coins are widgets and presidential dollars.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
All The Way - And Then Some
I collect Modern Commemoratives
and anything Franklin.
<< <i>maybe my gun safe isn't so safe... but first you must be able to get into the house...then FIND the safe (not easy)...at this point it won't matter ...the intruder will be dead, or i will. >>
I agree with Moz, In addition, unless you are somehow KNOWN to have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of coins in your safe, the average burgular will be highly discouraged by even a gun safe. The average burgular won't want to spend more than 10 minutes in your house and will swipe all the easy stuff he can find and carry away easily. Of course we are talking of the run of the mill crack addict looking to score some easy money from the pawn shop. A pro is different, therefore, don't advertise wealth.
Torch / tool resistant is another........
But....... Keep this in mind........... If 3 or 4 guys can carry it......... IT'S TOO SMALL !!!!!!!!!!!
3 "DAMMIT BOYS"
4 "YOU SUCKS"
Numerous POTD (But NONE officially recognized)
Seated Halves are my specialty !
Seated Half set by date/mm COMPLETE !
Seated Half set by WB# - 289 down / 31 to go !!!!!
(1) "Smoebody smack him" from CornCobWipe !
IN MEMORY OF THE CUOF
I saved the information and have shared it with several folks over time.
Always keep the cool stuff at the bank.
<< <i>One way to save some money is buy a used safe. CHeck with your local locksmith or safe store. You can save more than 50% on a used/refurbished safe that came out of a jewelry store or the like. >>
Yep, I got a 2500 lb TL15 rated safe that had been upgraded with an additional 3" of high density concrete on the outside for $1750 used.
It must have fallen off a truck and split open. Sadly, it was empty.
<< <i>I found this one lying alongside Interstate 70 in central Kansas.
It must have fallen off a truck and split open. Sadly, it was empty.
Notice, you're standing by a gun safe.
<< <i>
<< <i>I found this one lying alongside Interstate 70 in central Kansas.
It must have fallen off a truck and split open. Sadly, it was empty.
Notice, you're standing by a gun safe. >>
Yes, I noticed that before I even got out of the car.