Comments on new Krause catalog.
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My copy of the 2006 Krause came in today, so I went to the local coin shop to pick it up. I cannot think of a more unwieldy tome, especially as a reference.
2,335 pages, with a spine 3 inches wide! A bit too thick for a paperback book methinks. I think that next year they will have to split it into two volumes, but the question becomes "How?" 1901-1999 in volume 1, then 2000-present in volume 2? I would think that at least for the next year or two it would make for a lopsided set. I think it makes more sense to take the Scott Catalog approach (stamp catalogs), keeping it 1901 to present, but splitting alphabetically, A-M in volume 1 and N-Z in volume 2. Then as the years progress and more modern crap is foisted upon the planet (can you tell I have a bias towards classic material?
), you can break the alphabet down into further volumes.I do like the fact that some of the listings have been expanded since the 1998 edition which I replaced. I also still have a 1996 edition (the last year 1801-1900 and 1901- were in the same volume) as well as a 1975 edition. What was disturbing to me was when comparing the 1996 and 1975 editions, seeing the listings of varieties and tokens that had been REMOVED to make space (which is one of the reasons I keep selected older volumes). Pruning listings on early material to make space for the ever-increasing amount of modern material is a BAD thing. The world is rife with countries that are increasingly issuing themed coinage "for collectors", as a revenue source (take a walk through the listings for Cook Islands or Isle of Man sometime; it's ridiculous). I almost hesitate to call some of these issues "coins" as I doubt you would ever see any of these in circulation.
Spending some time with the new Krause, I find the new layout and organization make it much more difficult to find coins. The denomination listings are in a much smaller font, thus finding the breaks between types harder to find. Also, perhaps it's my imagination, but I see more countries being reorganized to catgeorize listings by era rather than denomination. There always was some of that in certain countries, but it now seems to be taken to extremes with the new format. The typeface used for the listings in general is smaller; the overall appearance is very cluttered.
Thumbs down on the layout changes.
-Dan
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Comments
<< <i>What was disturbing to me was when comparing the 1996 and 1975 editions, seeing the listings of varieties and tokens that had been REMOVED to make space (which is one of the reasons I keep selected older volumes). Pruning listings on early material to make space for the ever-increasing amount of modern material is a BAD thing. >>
They should dump the NCLT junk and use the space for more detailed listings of real coins.
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A lot of the newer coins are barely coins at all but some people like them and they are often
made in limited numbers. To each his own. I like circulating coins regardless of when they
were made, and the more of them that circulated and the more they circulated the better.
I like your solution to the growing size of the book.
I got them back in July.
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Just my two groats.
One thing that makes finding coins easier is the addition of Letter Tabs for each letter of the alphabet. This saves TONS of time. The pages of Collecting World Coins are thicker then the phone book thin pages of the Standard Catalog and make the addition of letter tabs possible.
Mark
<< <i>Talking of splitting the catalogues, wouldn't it be better to have one catalogue for NCLT and another for Circulation material? Have them in separate book. The commem collectoras wouldn't have to bother with the run of the mill stuff and i as a circulation coin only collector wouldn't have to put up with the forced NCLT drivel.
Just my two groats. >>
There are lots of people who collect by country and this could damage the markets
for one type of coin or the other. There also is not a hard and fast dividing line be-
tween circulating issues and NCLT. Many of even the most blatantly NCLT issues are
collected by the purist and seeing only the commems and NCLT issues in a catalog
would give one a very distorted picture of the world of coins today. (the Marshall
Islands would appear to be more important than Germany).
It's not that such catologs wouldn't sell, it's just that it would be a great loss to not
have inclusive catalogs available.
<< <i>There are lots of people who collect by country and this could damage the markets
for one type of coin or the other. There also is not a hard and fast dividing line be-
tween circulating issues and NCLT. Many of even the most blatantly NCLT issues are
collected by the purist and seeing only the commems and NCLT issues in a catalog
would give one a very distorted picture of the world of coins today. (the Marshall
Islands would appear to be more important than Germany).
It's not that such catologs wouldn't sell, it's just that it would be a great loss to not
have inclusive catalogs available. >>
Seriously though the problem facing the publishers is that the books are going to get far to big to carry around (i mean they are big as it goes now), but imagine the 2001-2100 book as the century progresses. More commems are being issued by more countries than ever before and the book are only going to get bigger. Which would leave the problem of where do you split the book?
Alphabetically? (first half of alphabet in one, second half in another)
By metal? (gold/silver in one, base metals in another?)
Circulation issue/commem?
2000-2050/2051-2100
The problem with The Collecting World Coins Catalog is that i've heard it's not that much good? I dunno i've never seen one. So i refrain comment.
The problem is there seems to be no way of reducing it. I suppose technology will be the answer with portable hand held computers with the full book on a database and you can look it up as you go around. But until that is economical for everyone i guess they're gonna have to split the book somewhere and no matter which way you do it, it'll upset someone who'll have to use both books instead of one or other.
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<< <i>Can't we have 50's as a new border line, as in 1900-1950, 1951-2005 or something, which in my humble opinion, might help quite significantly.
Actually, I don't think that would solve anything. That 1900-1950 volume would be very slender, because only a small proportion of the current tome is material from that era. The proliferation of commemoratives/NCLT didn't start until well after that point (the 1970s is where it started getting silly, progressing to more stupid in the 1980s, and hit ludicrous speed in the 1990s). All it would do is maybe shave an inch off the current colume, and the same issue would reoccur in about 2 years.
I prefer Aethelred's suggestion of 1980, but I still think that choosing any time-based breakpoint would be arbitrary. The alphabetical split avoids this issue on an ongoing basis...
-Dan
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Don
<< <i>Just cut out all the NCLT coins and it will be fine. >>
This is my preferred method. Cladking stated it would be difficult to tell between the two, whilst this is true of some issues. I think the questions they should ask are;
1) Is this coin issued to circulate (be it a commem or not)
2) Does this coin see active circulation on a regular daily basis?
In the case of UK £2 coins and 50p's they are issued in Commem and regular issue format most years. Both the ordinary and the commems circulate in everyday circulation. Therefore they'd both be allowed into the circulation book.
Stuff like Maundy money does not circulate (albeit it is legal tender) and thus should be shoved in the NCLT book. As should all the silver and gold versions of the UK coinage released each year, and all the sovereigns after 1932. And all the crowns and £5 coins. And all the bullion.
Personally i'd cut out practically everything that isn't issued to circulate, and that includes all the proofs which are realistically NCLT, but i'm a purist.
<< <i> The world is rife with countries that are increasingly issuing themed coinage "for collectors", as a revenue source (take a walk through the listings for Cook Islands or Isle of Man sometime; it's ridiculous). I almost hesitate to call some of these issues "coins" as I doubt you would ever see any of these in circulation. >>
I agree!!! We should start by eliminating all the Mint Sets, Proof Sets and commemorative (both modern as well as the early issues) that have been put out by the United States Mint. I know I almost never see them in my pocket change, and who cares about those collectors anyway. I think that if people don't like to collect what I do, they should be barred from collecting altogether. THAT WILL TEACH THEM A LESSON!
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-Dan
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I have nothing against collectors of NCLT coins. In fact, I have a few myself. Elephants is the theme I collect.
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Don
Another option is an electronic version which I have seen, around 3gb or so, which you need a dvd for that. I am more in favor of the electronic version as it is most definately lighter and you don't need to carry such ridicious weight around.
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<< <i>Another option is an electronic version which I have seen, around 3gb or so >>
Where did you see an electronic version? People have asked for one but Krause said they wouldn't do it because they were concerned about piracy.
I could see, maybe, a country or two but "all?"
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But i've got some French references to acquire first.
<< <i>Actually, I don't think that would solve anything. That 1900-1950 volume would be very slender, because only a small proportion of the current tome is material from that era. The proliferation of commemoratives/NCLT didn't start until well after that point (the 1970s is where it started getting silly, progressing to more stupid in the 1980s, and hit ludicrous speed in the 1990s). All it would do is maybe shave an inch off the current colume, and the same issue would reoccur in about 2 years. >>
Lonestar: That's the new Krause Catalog?
Barf: They've gone to plaid!
Sorry ... couldn't resist mangling the quotation a bit ... still haven't gotten around to looking for one of the new catalogs myself. Probably would keep it at home anyway as it would probably be of more use when searching the internet ... at least for me.
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<< <i>I think the NCLT's should be put into a different catalogue, or seperate the current one by date. It is way too large as it is now.
I have nothing against collectors of NCLT coins. In fact, I have a few myself. Elephants is the theme I collect. >>
I think a quasi set date splt would work, like the Paper Money catalogs. Just split where issues change drastically around a certain time period, probably best around the late 1960s when most circulating silver issues disappeared, or later in the 1980s like mentioned earlier.
In my opinion, cutting NCLT would be best and possibly sets. If more room is needed still then split proofs and essais etc also.
The more varieties and details on identifying them the better, that way buying more specific catalogs is not as necessary.
I think proof strikings and even things like Canada's proof-like strikes should be considered NCLT, unless there is some place that smacks up proof dies for coins meant to be handled in trade. I'm unsure about things like Maundy Money sets and sets made up of regular business stuck coins though.
Keep listings for individual proofs, proof sets and mint sets of coin types that circulate.
Kill individual proofs and proof sets of types that do not circulate (NCLT). Maundy has a purpose, keep it.
Kill all essai strikings, even if of types that made it to circulation.
Kill excessive listing of off-metal strikes. (I'm not sure this is a problem, but if a 5 year series is minted in three metals, put a footnote to that effect rather than 10 extra lines.)
Add two lines naming design elements in cases where it's not obvious to the average American.
Cut back on the fluff in the historical background blurbs for countries or retool it to be more meaningful.
Add...?
Remove...?
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<< <i>Here's the plan for the Standard catalog, all else goes into the Specialized one:
Keep listings for individual proofs, proof sets and mint sets of coin types that circulate.
Kill individual proofs and proof sets of types that do not circulate (NCLT). Maundy has a purpose, keep it.
Kill all essai strikings, even if of types that made it to circulation.
Kill excessive listing of off-metal strikes. (I'm not sure this is a problem, but if a 5 year series is minted in three metals, put a footnote to that effect rather than 10 extra lines.)
Add two lines naming design elements in cases where it's not obvious to the average American.
Cut back on the fluff in the historical background blurbs for countries or retool it to be more meaningful.
Add...?
Remove...? >>
This wouldn't be too bad but the large numbers of country collectors would have two books
to buy. This isn't that big a problem since however it's split there will be a lot of people who
need to buy both.
It would be nice to see a little more logical split in the different series also. Include the older
dates of any series that starts after 1900. The book would be so much thinner that a few old-
er series might even be included if it will make a country or type complete. Since all series
starting after 1900 would be included it could still be called the 1900 to date catalog or just
drop this and call it The Krause World Coin Catalog.
I do like the historical stuff though.
<< <i>Sounds good to me. Some people might make a distinction between business bullion coins(US Eagles) and NCLT-type bullion coins(Pandas). I'm not sure how to handle that. >>
If the kid behind the counter scratches his head when you try buying a burger and fries with it, it goes in the other book
<< <i>The big question is how the two volumes compare, sizewise. If the NCLT book is to big, you risk having to spit it in a few years. >>
At the pace things are going that may not be too far off. But we can't cling to unwieldy books because it would be nicer to have only one. It is inevitable that things will need better classification and separation. Better to get a jump on it early, get as much right the first time around as possible than be shocked when things turn out unfavorable later.
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<< <i>If the kid behind the counter scratches his head when you try buying a burger and fries with it, it goes in the other book
Which means half dollars and $1 coins all belong in the NCLT book then.
The 2003 edition was the first digital format of the information so that's a first step to getting away from paper at least. The plodding march of technology may perhaps see a real computer based product in maybe 5-10 years?
Krause will split the catalog into whatever format based only on the following factors:
Will it sell at least as well as previous formats?
and
Can they make more profit off it?
World Coin & PM Collector
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Most certainly we can just enter in countries and we don't need to do the manual flipping. i.e. type in "france" and out pops out the french catalogue. But yes, I would think that a "3d" version would be cool, as it can possbily depict coin edges at the same time which a normal paperback catalogue cannot depict it fully.
Subscriptions based on time period. (Just as the books are now.)
First century purchased w/o pricing info at $15. Each additional century for 1/3 off. (Lower price can still make more money: yearly subscription near-guarantees renewal, whereas folks may only buy dead trees every few years. Plus the format and additional features are more appealing, giving more customers.)
Add $15 for pricing info included for first century purchase above, 1/3 off additional centuries.
Free message boards w/o service subscription.
Free email with any subscription.
Free "MyCoins" log for subscribers to track their inventory based on the catalog contents (reducing DB consumption).
Charge another $20 a year to allow uploading up to a GB of your own coin pictures to the MyCoins personal inventory. (Use a feature to disable outside linking directly to pics to prevent abuse by dealers/ebayers.)
Charge $100 a year for dealer packages to upload your own pics allowing outside linking (to third party websites, ie, ebay, etc), offering 2GB of standard webhost-type features. Also develop a function to allow for auto-insertion of coin data into ebay auction listings (probably a javascript).
Umm... I forgot the other points. But this is something I've brainstormed on before. Would like to hear comments as to whether a system like this seems economically feasible. Definitely is appealing, to me at least!
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But yes, I had plans of building such sites, but meh, it takes too much time and maintence + I don't have the computer skills.
This example alone,tells me that Krause will not separate NCLTs into a different volume, although most members of this forum including myself would like to see it this way. Remember that there are people who enter numismatics by buying an NCLT coin or set,(for example, during a sports event such as the Olympics), or they get it as a gift and then one day (maybe years later) ,they decide to buy a catalogue to see what it's worth,or what else they can add to their starters collection , and by doing so, they come into contact with the circulation coins and discover the incredible variety of the world of numismatics. It also works the other way round, people inherit so called "collections" from uncles, grandfathers etc, which in most cases is an accumulation of junk coins from their ancesters' trips around the world, and they decide to buy a catalogue to evaluate their inheritance. Again, by doing so, they see a wonderful variety of designs ,colours and shapes of NCLT coins that are still made in precious metals but do not cost a fortune to obtain in nice BU or proof condition, unlike the regular coins, and they start collecting NCLTs. For this reason, I don't think these two will ever be so drastically separated and I tend to agree with this. If it's a way to attract more people into numismatics, then hardcore collectors such as members of the Darkside will have to suffer the extra weight and volume. It's for a good cause.
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Gold, platinum, niobium, etc = NCLT. And now silver as well? Should the catalogs be split by metal content or have it used as a way to determine NCLT status? Just other thoughts to consider.
Personally, I'd be willing to carry an 1800-present volume of circulation issues around no matter what it weighed.
World Coin & PM Collector
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Good news is you're unlikely to spend more than reasonable for a particular coin simply because you had no real idea what it was worth. The online database could be kept up-to-date on an ongoing basis. For the collector this means realistic prices.
Bad news is probably the reverse of the medal. For a dealer it may mean that they have to operate on even smaller margins than they do now. This will have the chilling effect of driving more dealers out of the business and consolidating into larger organizations that can operate on that thin margin.
As I type this I have three different friends working on electronic versions of Napoleonic medals catalogs. At least one of these intends to have prices associated with them. While none of them are likely to be commercial successes, or are even contemplated as such, it shows how the spread of the internet brings these types of projects within reach. The friend who plans on including prices has even semi-automated the process of gathering sales results from places like eBay and Yahoo to feed his price database.
If an individual can accomplish this in their spare time it is certain that a company like Krause could do the same for a fraction of the cost of a printed book that is almost immediately outdated somewhere. If that 'somewhere' is your particular collecting interest this can be very frustrating. Also, they could cater to a collector's particular needs. In my case I collect 1789-1815. As a result I'm left with the need to buy *two* Krauses to cover my 26 year period. And as you know, the older (pre-1800) books tend to go longer between releases. I would cater to specialists by making it possible to customize my online experience. After all if you only collect 1901 why should you have to hunt through the rest, even electronically?
Just my two centimes...
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