When David Hall kicked Haletj(sp?) off for his rude, incendiary comments, he tore the heart and soul
Justhavingfun
Posts: 835 ✭
There's another thread going about why this Forum has become so dull and boring. I think it unfortunately misses the real reason. And I think the real reason is that when David Hall kicked Haletj (sp?) off the boards for his rude, ugly, incendiary comments, and threatened all others who might write similarly strong statements with similar punishments -- I think that ripped the heart and soul out of this Forum.
That said, I think it needs to added that it's David's company and I absolutely support his right to do what he did
Third, it also needs to be said that David's action was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen a smart businessman do. Because when your clients are disgruntled, you should want to know that they're disgruntled, and know why.
And by jiminy, Haletj's thread gave David exactly that information. It was a great thread for David and PCGS to study and learn from. For my money, he should have thanked Haletj for being such a boneheaded pig about the grading and made his thanks more tangible than words, by extending the offer of the presidential review to him, first and foremost.
I'm a businessman, and I hate it when clients p_iss all over me and my company the way Haletj did to David and PCGS. I hate it for about 30 seconds and then thank god for the feedback, and start to try to figure out how to remedy the problem. David evidently had that 30 seconds of hate and never made it to the other side. The result: He's cut himself and his company off from needed feedback and turned this Forum into a castrati.
My recommendation: David should write an apology to Haletj, and get down on his hands and knees and beg the rude, dumb pain-in-the-ummm-neck to come on back. And I promise you that Haletj's first post will be among the most widely anticipated, read, discussed, and debated threads ever to hit this forum. As soon as Haletj returns, this Forum will be interesting all over again.
Sorry, David. I admire what you've done with PCGS, with unerring instinct for the right move. But this time you blew it. Now, do the right thing and make it good. You will be the biggest beneficiary.
Warm regards from a fellow businessman and a fellow coin fanatic.
Just having fun
That said, I think it needs to added that it's David's company and I absolutely support his right to do what he did
Third, it also needs to be said that David's action was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen a smart businessman do. Because when your clients are disgruntled, you should want to know that they're disgruntled, and know why.
And by jiminy, Haletj's thread gave David exactly that information. It was a great thread for David and PCGS to study and learn from. For my money, he should have thanked Haletj for being such a boneheaded pig about the grading and made his thanks more tangible than words, by extending the offer of the presidential review to him, first and foremost.
I'm a businessman, and I hate it when clients p_iss all over me and my company the way Haletj did to David and PCGS. I hate it for about 30 seconds and then thank god for the feedback, and start to try to figure out how to remedy the problem. David evidently had that 30 seconds of hate and never made it to the other side. The result: He's cut himself and his company off from needed feedback and turned this Forum into a castrati.
My recommendation: David should write an apology to Haletj, and get down on his hands and knees and beg the rude, dumb pain-in-the-ummm-neck to come on back. And I promise you that Haletj's first post will be among the most widely anticipated, read, discussed, and debated threads ever to hit this forum. As soon as Haletj returns, this Forum will be interesting all over again.
Sorry, David. I admire what you've done with PCGS, with unerring instinct for the right move. But this time you blew it. Now, do the right thing and make it good. You will be the biggest beneficiary.
Warm regards from a fellow businessman and a fellow coin fanatic.
Just having fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
0
Comments
HALETJ GOT THROWN OFF THE FORUMS...... *%#$@ ......that never happened to me
David back from vacation now so perhaps he will have chilled out
stewart
JHF, you are correct that it is DH's company, and he will be responsible for the actions the company takes. If the action results in the Forum becoming more civilized and less whiny, then so be it.
Real serious mistakes by TPG's can be better handled in person, or by letter. Screaming at someone in public is not appropriate in any locale.
I do not see the owner getting on his hands and knees, unless his wife wants him to scrub the kitchen floor.
Edit: If the heart and soul of this forum is controversy, and that's what makes it tick, then I will probably go elsewhere. Kicking and screaming is for goats and horror movies.
I missed the thread but I still vote for reinstatement. This forum needs members like Jaime.
RegistryNut
<< <i>Boneheaded pigs >>
or Pigheaded Boners??? Neither makes good business sense.
Head, shoulder, knees and toes... whatever...
Kidding and most bodyparts aside, valid points have been made "from the heart", as one would expect from true reg. set collectors.
In my opinion, this is just the place to explain "gut" feelings about the sudden collapse of our registry forum. I trust that opinions will be received in the same sincere manner as they were offered.
Here's the deal as I see it. (Note that I have collected reg. coins from 1892 to date, since the 1998-9 reg. year, with about 80 reg. sets so far.) Logic dictates that discussion of reg. coins on the reg. set forum will primarily concern the most popular, most widely collected reg. sets. A large percentage of reg. sets are what some, perhaps most term "modern" sets. I like to discuss modern reg. coins.
The only reason I see, for the few determined foes of "the discussions about PCGS registry sets - building them, buying them, selling them, collecting them," who put down "modern coins" at every opportunity, is that some of these forum members feel fear, as they think that they see a dwindling supply of quality nineteenth and early twentienth century coins. This fear, no matter how loudly expressed, shouldn't have a catastrophic effect on our once popular reg. forum itself. Putting down "modern's on the reg. forum does nothing to the rapid developing sales of modern coins. It just curtails the bright discussion thereof.
As JHF may have assumed by adding his thoughts and feelings, I think that the reg. forum is just the place to "hash it out". In my opinion, it is being hashed out and, beyond a few discontented, boisterous naysayers of "moderns", who incidently, have not been heard from here since Dave's New Rules were announced, except to keep "punching while the opponent is on the mat", it is clear to me that the restoration of the former generally accepted reg. forum rules is appropriate.
Plain and simple, few reg. forum contributers are having fun now, except for those who get their jollies seeing the coins they do not collect enjoy little or negative discussion. JFH is correct. The heart and soul was ripped out of the reg. forum. It is now time to restore the comraderie and friendly competition we have shared in the past.
Seems like everyone that I know who's been kicked off comes back using an alias.
What has been accomplished???
I think we've all had issue with PCGS (prints, not getting the grade we want etc) but there are ways to talk about these things in public.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
to believe the importance of his actual presense on this forum is exaggerated. It would be
great to see him back but the actions taken in responce to the thread were highly predictable.
While his return would probably not set a bad precedent, it does seem improbable. I have lit-
tle doubt that Jamie would welcome the chance to return.
In any case the quiet here coincides very closely with the end of the offers to buy, sell, and
trade registry coins. While these threads were rarely very interesting it did bring people here
to look and they'd often post while here. Many of the finest threads on these forums used to
take place here and I, for one, miss them.
I have probably e-mailed and done business with Jaime more in the last few months than I have posted on the Registry board.
I agree with JHF. The same discussion goes on, but somewhere else, out of the purview of PCGS. If I were them, I would want it right on the front burner so I could watch it.
My sets are pretty quiet right now. I'm saving, cultivating, searching . . . all in quiet fashion, dodging the shot-takers. I have quite a group to be graded, but I'm waiting for the right moment, and circumstance to come in to play.
But then there was that clause about flaunting orange, silk undies. So be on your watch.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Dear Tahoe Dale:
I must not have made my point clearly. By kicking Haletj off the boards, David may have made the Forum 'more civilized and less whiny,' but also less interesting to the participants, less useful to them, and less useful to himself. Less useful to we participants, because the free exchange of ideas has been staunched. And less useful to himself, because kicking off Haletj was a major step towards cutting himself off from feedback from clients, and every businessman needs that feedback.
Mr. Registry Set, from whom I have bought many wonderful coins, said it better than me, so I'll quote him. " I think that the reg. forum is just the place to 'hash it out'" I think that was the intent of this forum -- a place where the Registry Set fans and foes could hash it out; idea by idea, coin by coin.
This Forum was lively, boisterous, fun, and I learned a ton of interesting schtuff. I've actually printed out and saved a baker's dozen of threads -- they were so informative. But with the exception of Frank Corso's thread on how to improve the Jefferson Nickel Registry Set(s), they all pre-dated Haletj's expulsion. Since the expulsion, this Forum has been a Sahara for ideas and dissent.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Hi Registry Nut:
Well you missed a humdinger. Too bad, and it was very interesting. Haletj submitted some coins and was very unhappy with the grades he got. To me, if I remember correctly (and at my age, I may not), he accused PCGS of virtually everything from incompetence to fraud. I thought his accusations were absurd: sour grapes pure and simple.
But, as you might imagine, an extended and lively discussion followed.
A number of other complaints -- similar in essence but less vociferously put -- emerged in the thread. And so did numerous defenders of PCGS -- who, in my opinion were doing a great job and were sweeping the field.
It was a great thread and as only an occasional participant in these threads, I was stunned when the thread was removed and Haletj kicked out. Actions like that always have unintended consequences, and the boredom that so many of the former participants in this Forum now feel is surely one of them.
Well, it's nitey nite time for you guys, but my business day is just beginning. I have two clients waiting on me, and so I'll sign off for now. More this evening (my time), the morning (your time)
From Bangkok with best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Annualize this and find a nice day's work.
Thank you.
I had a little contact with Jaime over the course of a year or so. He seemed like a dedicated collector. He just wanted to feel like he got a fair shake.
Jack
"JFH is correct. The heart and soul was ripped out of the reg. forum. It is now time to restore the comraderie and friendly competition we have shared in the past."
Thank you, Mr. Registry Set. Perfectly said: Few Registry Set Forum contributers are having fun now. Isn't it a sad commentary when three of the four liveliest threads on this Forum are about how boring it is?
And again, my thanks to you for many wonderful coins and even a few top ranked Registry Sets that I promise to post, with credit to you.
Warm regards,
Just HAving Fun
Yes, I believe you're right, that Haletj is back -- only under an alias. You're one of four people to tell me that. All the others did so privately because they were fearful of posting the news publicly. So I really, really appreciate your guts -- and willingness to speak up publicly.
I also agree with your second point: "the quiet here coincides very closely with the end of the offers to buy, sell, and trade registry coins. While these threads were rarely very interesting it did bring people here
to look and they'd often post while here."
That's obviously an important point, but still I think the act of kicking Haletj off for his rude, incendiary comments is the key.
Clad King writes that he thinks the importance of Haletj on these boards is exaggerated. I agree. It's not Haletj that's the issue. It's the act of expelling him that's the issue.
Do you realize that more people have written me privately about this thread than publicly? Why?
-- One person wrote out of fear that I would get canned from the Forum for starting this thread. I want to thank him again, publicly, for his concern, but don't want to use his name since he wrote privately.
-- Three others were fearful that THEY would get canned if they responded to this thread.
-- And I have 4 new e-mails in my Iamjusthavingfun@hotmail.com mailbox that I haven't had a chance to open but which I presume can only be about this.
That fear is the unintended consequence of kicking Haletj off and that is why the raucous but fascinating give-and-take about individual coins, sets, composition of sets, weighting, grades, and so forth that once characterized this Forum is gone. Finished. Kaput.
Time to bring it back. And what is needed to bring it back is a message from the owner that dissent and criticism are tolerated and even welcomed. And there could be no clearer was to get that message than to see DAvid Hall publicly welcome Haletj back to this Forum.
And why should this dissent and criticism be tolerated and even welcomed? Out of David's own self interest. DMWJr summarizes the reason why: "The same discussion goes on, but somewhere else, out of the purview of PCGS. If I were them, I would want it right on the front burner so I could watch it." Amen.
Enjoy yourselves!
Just Having Fun
Yes, of couse Haletj just wants to get fair shake. But who here in the Forum hasn't ever gotten back grades they've shaken their heads over? Isn't that part of the game?
The reason we're here, on the PCGS message boards, is probably because we think PCGS -- with all its faults -- is far and away the best of the third party grading companies. I know it's the reason I am. PCGS is where the action is; where the coins are. Heck, when I bought the 1894-S dime, the first action I took was to cross it from an NGC holder to a PCGS holder.
But, if I remember correctly, Haletj spoke of PCGS as if it were a third world grading company, incompetent and perhaps even malicious. It was just uncalled for and in my opinion, rude, inaccurate and over the line. If I had been in David's shoes, I would have been ticked off too.
But that said, I think David handled it atrociously by canning Haletj, and in doing so gutted this Forum -- and hurt his own company.
A simple public letter from Haletj acknowledging the same, combined with another simple letter from David to Haletj offering a regrade at NGC(!) or PCGS (either on the house), would quickly and fairly resolve the issue. A few hundred bucks out of pocket and David would look like a saint instead of Darth Vader. This Forum would have a chance to regain its vibrancy and interest. And David would once again have the benefit of a Forum where he can read, monitor, and learn from the latest complaints about his company.
Warm regards,
Just Having
I have mentioned to homerunhall a year ago, possibly more; the suggestion that first/second time offenders be given a suspension of up to 6 months depending on the severity of their action.
I mentioned that these offenders learn from their mistakes.
He politely declined my suggestion.
Perhaps it is reasonable to once again to take a look again at that idea.
Justhavingfun - Have you ever met David Hall.I wouldn't think so because of your approach.Whatever David does,he will do on his own if he does anything at all.As we say in New York,David is quite a piece of work.
Stewart
A submitter of coins for grading at a TPG will almost always be disappointed in the grades given and will complain about the lack of professionalism, as the variance is apparant all over the coin market.
But must one have no responsibility for the words thrown at an individual, and not understand why that individual might use powers in his control to limit over-harsh reactions?
This board is seen by people of all ages and intellectual levels, and a real difference in grading experience. A vicious attack of the finest recognized grading service might lead a newbie or others to believe they are crooks, or at least poorly trained and supervised. Most companies would respond with the penalty that has been in effect- you're fired, in the words of The Donald.
The TPG's do not set prices, only grades. The dealers who buy, and the collectors who hold the coins in their sets are the final arbiters of the value of the low end 65 or high end 64.
While some newer collectors may get burned by the overgraded coins, or ones with problems, and some submitters will be stressed to the nth degree, it is a learning process that takes years to understand and become efficient and knowledgeable.
This Forum, while enjoyable at times, and a total bore at others, is not the end-all for most collectors. If it helps relieve the stress of every day humdrum life, and the learning process is increased, then it serves a purpose.
Rather than complain, do something useful. Like give a small(or large) donation to the ANS. It will make you feel better.
Once you lose control of your emotions, then things go downhill rapidly. While I will miss some of those who have been banned, they have all brought it upon themselves. Time for them to take some RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. I get so tired of people acting out and then being surprised there were consequences.
A full debate can be held on any issue and strong positions held without resorting to tactics that will get you banned. It just requires some thoughtful writing, not instant gratification through flaming...ect. Just MHO on all of this.
No. I've never met David but I share somethings in common with him: we've both become #1 in our respective ponds. And I've enjoyed splashing around in his pond.
Because of this, I know something about him. People don't create companies like PCGS by accident. It's by intent. Without ever meeting him, I know David's tough, intelligent, and thoughtful. And I know he LOVES his company.
I also know that David knew, when he kicked Haletj off the Forums, that he was going over the edge. That's why -- simultaneously with the expulsion -- David offered the free presidential reviews. That was his form of damage control. And it was effective.
I was aghast at David's act of explusion. His company was responding -- on its own -- just like an owner would want it to; like a healthy body reacts to an invasive bacteria. The PCGS partisans were swarming all over Haletj; giving him tit for tat and, in my opinion, more so.
I wanted to say something then and there, because I knew David had made a serious mistake. But I'm no Cassandra ... and didn't know what the fall out would be, so I shut my mouth and went about my business.
But in time, it became clear to me that the action -- along with his other action about selling coins on the forum -- had disemboweled the Registry Set Forum and turned it into a castrati.
I assure you, that was not what he wanted (though from his damage control, previously cited, he obviously feared it).
So, as my way of saying "thank you" to David, for all he's done for coin collectors in general and me in particular, I thought I'd start this thread and point out for David that ...
-- The expulsion of Haletj was having unintended consequences that were neither in his (David's) best interests
-- Nor in the best interests of PCGS
And, frankly, part of my motive was to promote my own best interests because a healthy PCGS (and NGC) are good for all of us fanatic coin collectors.
If David has read this thread, I'm sure some of the things Mr. Registry Set, CladKing, Tahoe Dale, and others have said will resonate with him.
And, no, I don't expect David to get down on his knees and beg Haletj to return. But as one top dog talking about another, I know David will find a way -- in his own time and own style -- to repair the damage he's done. He loves his company too much to do otherwise.
Warm regards to you and the rest of the crew who braved perdition to contribute to this thread. And of couse, most of all, thanks to David without whom none of this would have been possible.
Just Having Fun
August 15, 2005
That said, I generally never print the major concerns I have about coin doctors, large submittors/crackout dealers, and other issues. I just don't need the aggrevation.
I'd suggest somebody link Legend's Hot Topics article on ALL TPG's--assuming she isn't banned in Boston yet again.
will not make or break the Forum. We are ,what we are,
as a collective of folks. That in the final analysis is what we
are and what we will always be.
Camelot
You're usually on target, but I think you missed it completely this time, by focusing on Haletj, and saying in the broad scheme of things his contribution was not central to the Forum. That's true, but entirely besides the point.
The issue on this thread is NOT Haletj but the explusion which has ripped out the heart and soul of this Forum. This has been to the detriment of (a) the Registry Set Forum because members have become legitimately fearful of expressing legitimate complaints ... and to the detriment of (b) PCGS which, by expelling Haletj has taken a significant step towards cutting itself off from needed input from dissatisfied customers.
(a) Even I hadn't realize how much this had stiffled expression of legitimate complaints until I started this thread. Then I found many Forum members writing me private messages and e-mails because they were too fearful to write publicly on this thread.
Is it any surprise -- when Forum members are fearful of expressing anything beyond hosannah's of praise -- that this Registry Set Forum has become much less interesting than it used to be? Or is it any surprise that three of the most popular (and interesting) posts on the Forum recently were about how dull and boring the Forum has become?
And (b) it's terrible for PCGS, because any company needs the feed back from its customers, and the more negative it is, the more important that they get it. It should harbor the critics and hold them to its bosom as a valuable asset.
PCGS is a great company with a great product, and has no need to be afraid of ideas. tHaletj's criticism was obviously unnecessarily rude and crude, but much better it was expressed in a semi-private forum than to the public at large. And it was great that his criticisms were expressed on the PCGS Forum where PCGS's other customers could and did refute it on their own. You obviously didn't read the Haletj thread -- or didn't read it carefully. Because as I remember it, any fair reading of it showed the pro-PCGS faction smashing the anti-PCGS faction. It was a great thread and one of the threads that once made this Forum interesting.
Anyway, one sparrow does not a summer make, and Haletj's expulsion not withstanding, I think PCGS is a great company and has had a wonderful impact on the numismatic community. On a personal level, PCGS has been a boon to me, too. I want to see this Forum get back on track, and I'd like to see PCGS continue it's meteoric growth. And to further those goals, I'd like to see DAvid and PCGS repair the damage that they've done to themselves.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
I didn't see the Haletj's thread before it got nuked, but from what I gathered after-the-fact, my understanding is that while Haletj may have leveled some valid complaints, he went far far beyond what I would expect in reasonable commentary. Maybe I'm mistaken and thinking of someone else who got nuked recently, but didn't this case go beyond simple complaining and enter the area of personal threats and attacks? If that really did happen, I can't fault David Hall nor PCGS at all for removing this person from the boards.
There definitely is a line where if a customer goes beyond simply complaining about the company and starts attacking individuals at a personal level that have nothing to do with the problem then this customer is not worth dealing with anymore and it's best to get rid of them. I'll agree that it would still be a good idea to try and figure out what caused the customer to go over the edge and see if there is anyway I could prevent that sort of behavior in the future, but that person has in my mind lost all their rights to do business with me.
If PCGS starts to nuke every user who posts "PCGS sucks" types of threads - of which there have been many thinly disguised as "why is PCGS so tight right now?", then I'll start to be concerned that this forum may no longer be as useful as it's been since I joined. Conversely, if PCGS doesn't nuke users who make personal attacks on ANYONE, I'll also be concerned for my and others personal safety which is even worse IMHO. If I'm wrong about Haletj and that he didn't cross this line, I'll have to rethink, but if I'm correct, I guess I really think it's better he's gone, no matter how much "good info" he provided here. I never met him, never talked to him, don't know him, maybe he's a nice guy and just had a really really bad day, but at some point you cannot excuse or allow some behaviors.
Need more $$$ for coins?
over the years.It continues to swing back and forth. When it
loosens, folks push the envelope, some blood is spilled and the
rules are inforced to the hilt. No, its not any fum to bite ones tongue
but there are times that biting ones tongue is a wise and prudent action.
Camelot
Perhaps you can pick up the mantle from me and once again suggest to homerunhall:
............that first/second time offenders be given a suspension of up to 6 months depending on the severity of their action...... repeat offenders then face expulsion ...........
Homerunhall had indicated that offenders have been warned prior to expulsion. If so, that is good; but another lockstep in-between is better yet. It puts "meat" into the warning system before the act of final expulsion.
To say you are my friend
When I was down
You just stood there grinning
You got a lotta nerve
To say you got a helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that's winning
You say I let you down
You know it's not like that
If you're so hurt
Why then don't you show it
You say you lost your faith
But that's not where it's at
You had no faith to lose
And you know it
I know the reason That
you talk behind my back
I used to be among the
crowd You're in with
Do you take me for such a fool
To think I'd make contact
With the one who tries to hide
What he don't know to begin with
You see me on the street
You always act surprised
You say, "How are you?" "Good luck"
But you don't mean it
When you know as well as me
You'd rather see me paralyzed
Why don't you just
come out once And scream it
No, I do not feel that good
When I see the heartbreaks you embrace
If I was a master thief
Perhaps I'd rob them
And now I know you're dissatisfied
With your position and your place
Don't you understand I
t's not my problem
I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you
Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
Then you'd know what a
drag it is To see you
<< <i>
To say you are my friend
When I was down
You just stood there grinning
You got a lotta nerve
To say you got a helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that's winning
You say I let you down
You know it's not like that
If you're so hurt
Why then don't you show it
You say you lost your faith
But that's not where it's at
You had no faith to lose
And you know it
I know the reason That
you talk behind my back
I used to be among the
crowd You're in with
Do you take me for such a fool
To think I'd make contact
With the one who tries to hide
What he don't know to begin with
You see me on the street
You always act surprised
You say, "How are you?" "Good luck"
But you don't mean it
When you know as well as me
You'd rather see me paralyzed
Why don't you just
come out once And scream it
No, I do not feel that good
When I see the heartbreaks you embrace
If I was a master thief
Perhaps I'd rob them
And now I know you're dissatisfied
With your position and your place
Don't you understand I
t's not my problem
I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you
Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
Then you'd know what a
drag it is To see you
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.
Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.
Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.
So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.
As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.
Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.
While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.
An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.
Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.
You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.
A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.
Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.
For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.
While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.
But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.
Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.
While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.
My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?
And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.
What happened to David Hall and Jaime Haletky ?????
If Zimmerman collected coins and submitted them to PCGS .......... He might get an upgrade or two.
stewart
WOOOOOW man...
Thank you very much for your help on this thread, Stewart, but Abe is just much more interesting than David and Jaime. Gosh, Those two poems/songs bring me right back to my early adult-hood, when his poetry twisted my head around and around until (I think) I got it. I have a whole nice set of his albums out here in Bangkok and was just listening to "blowing in the wind" the other night. Forty plus years later, he still resonates with me.
Thank you SaintGuru and QuattroCoin: I owe you both an ob for a glorious close to this thread. Bye bye and ...
Warm Regards,
Just Having Fun
Anyday, my friend. The answer IS blowin' in the wind.
On the other hand, this Forum is not equivalent to Kent State on May 4, 1970 where students protested the bombing of Cambodia and the "authorities" took (IMHO) grossly unreasonable action against them. This is a CORPORATE message board, where, as far as I know, the right to free speech and free press is NOT guaranteed under our Constitution? Further, I believe these boards of late have been filled far too much with hateful and venomous conduct - frankly I personally thought it was a positive development that the rules here were amended to try to add some more decorum and respect between board members in the quest to have more appropriate and respectful exchanges between members.
I also agree with the posters who suggested the current situation on this forum has more to do with DH's decision to stop the selling of coins on this forum a few months ago rather than the Jaime situation. This Forum was originally set up so that coins could be offered for sale here and, of course, members were "for" and "against" that policy from the beginning. Despite numerous votes througout the years, all of which resulted in the majority of forum members approving such selling, it was a sore spot with the minority and DH finally sided with that viewpoint. Yet, when DH changed that rule, I have gone along with his decision from day 1 and respected it.
Of course, by definition, there is less to talk about now when threads concerning coins for sale are no longer permissible here and when, to some extent, board members do need to be careful to not "go over the line" with there commentary, as Jaime did. But, I am not sure the "heart and soul" has been torn out of this place. And, again, I personally welcome the prospects for more courteous and respectful postings as a consequence of PCGS' latest rules.
Wondercoin
Thank you so much for those wonderful comments. When I read them, I glowed.
Dear Mr. Wondercoin:
Thank you, too, for all your thoughtful insights both on this topic and your great insights into the coins we've been pursuing together.
I noticed that you weren't posting very much any more and assume it is the press of business. Your absence leaves a big hole in this Forum. Nice to have you back, if even for a solitary post.
Best wishes to both of you,
Just Having Fun
You are indeed a class act. Although I am usually lurking and no where near your league I do admire your writings and etiquette.
Stay safe and you're always welcome back to Brooklyn
Marc
I wish I had seen the thread that is the subject of such controversy. From what I've read here, it sounds like haletj unloaded on DH regarding grades received. First, that type of disagreement should be handled privately, one-on-one, IMO and second, "Ownership is worth a grade point, maybe two" - something I always try to keep in mind.
I've had some real disappointing results at PCGS, but hey, that's the way it goes. One can always resubmit...
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
If his board of directors wasn't all his cronies, in the real world, he'd be the one getting the axe.
Its very petty when this place is run like someones personal ego gratification palace.
Feedom of speech is right that is protected by the law. Seems the big man better get used to it-even if this is his own kingdom.
PCGS owns the boards and we are guests, and we should act like it.
We do have the right to free speech, but that doesn't mean anyone has to listen!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Mike,
When a business can't appropriately address a customer's complaint (and the customer is a reasonable person), it leads to frustration. When a customer feels that they are not being heard, they sometimes will take it to another level. That's what happened here.
The best thing to do is "let this F--king thread "Go Away"
Stewart