Thoughts on the PSA conspiracy theory
Boopotts
Posts: 6,784 ✭✭
I'm on the record as saying that I don't think PSA gives volume submittors breaks on their grades. Here, in a nutshell, is why.
1) The first problem is the one that all conspiracy theories have to reconcile; i.e., you would have to keep too many people quiet. This would require more than just a wink and a handshake between Joe Orlando and DSL. Yes, Joe and DSL would have to keep their lips sealed. But then, whoever is grading the cards would have to keep quiet as well. As would any employees at DSL. The only way this would work is if DSL piped the cards over to Joe (or whomever), and Joe snuck in the grading room after hours and slabbed the cards. This probably isn't happening, so all it would take is one disgruntled grader to get the word out and PSA would have a very serious problem. Anyone who's ever run a business with employees knows the absolute last thing you want to do is give employees access to information which, if leaked, could ruin or seriously damage your company.
2) There's nothing in it for PSA. Consider: If DSL tries to work a deal with PSA, and PSA says no, what's DSL going to do? Start selling Beanie Babies? A huge number of their cards only carry a premium because of the PSA set registry. You're not going to submit 1971 OPC hockey commons to GAI and expect a significant ROI. DSL is 'stuck' with PSA, and PSA surely knows this. They're going to get DSL's business no matter what, since there's no where else DSL can turn. It's all risk, no reward for PSA.
For those who think volume submitters get preferential treatment I would be interested to hear how you respond to the above two arguments. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I'm happy to keep an open mind on the subject. But IMO these two issues need to be answered before the idea of a grading conspiracy can assume any merit.
1) The first problem is the one that all conspiracy theories have to reconcile; i.e., you would have to keep too many people quiet. This would require more than just a wink and a handshake between Joe Orlando and DSL. Yes, Joe and DSL would have to keep their lips sealed. But then, whoever is grading the cards would have to keep quiet as well. As would any employees at DSL. The only way this would work is if DSL piped the cards over to Joe (or whomever), and Joe snuck in the grading room after hours and slabbed the cards. This probably isn't happening, so all it would take is one disgruntled grader to get the word out and PSA would have a very serious problem. Anyone who's ever run a business with employees knows the absolute last thing you want to do is give employees access to information which, if leaked, could ruin or seriously damage your company.
2) There's nothing in it for PSA. Consider: If DSL tries to work a deal with PSA, and PSA says no, what's DSL going to do? Start selling Beanie Babies? A huge number of their cards only carry a premium because of the PSA set registry. You're not going to submit 1971 OPC hockey commons to GAI and expect a significant ROI. DSL is 'stuck' with PSA, and PSA surely knows this. They're going to get DSL's business no matter what, since there's no where else DSL can turn. It's all risk, no reward for PSA.
For those who think volume submitters get preferential treatment I would be interested to hear how you respond to the above two arguments. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I'm happy to keep an open mind on the subject. But IMO these two issues need to be answered before the idea of a grading conspiracy can assume any merit.
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Comments
I have thought the same thing myself. It would be too easy for a past group of disgruntled employees to come forth and spill their guts!
Plus, graders who moved on like Mike Baker could not keep something like that quiet - it would have to slip somewhere if they were truly set up that way.
Large volume guys do get a deal on the fees but bumps on grades? I just don't see how PSA could see a future in giving them out. Plus, it denegrades their own product.
Everytime we see a badly graded card - it may be just that...a badly graded card.
But, I will say the conspiracy stuff is much more "fun" to read!
mike
It is simply the shear volume of cards that these submitters send in that gets them the attention. Of course they will get more 9's and 10's because they send in so many cards that percentage wise the numbers of 9's and 10's looks huge. And you have to imagine these guys have acquired a pretty good sense of PSA's grading standards by now.
All one has to do is look at some of DSL's crap lots full of 8oc. 7oc, 4's, 5's, etc to see that they don't get breaks.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Absolutely correct - To add to these points and I've also stated this before...these huge submitters, not always but for the most part are going to sell their "high end for the grade" cards privately or in their card shops. The "low end for the grade" cards are going to be sold on ebay whereby even with a clear scan, all the little imperfections are not as noticable. So what you're seeing on ebay is mostly the "low end for the grade" cards that gives the appearance that the big dealer is receiving favorable treatment. For the most part the high end say 8's that are very close to 9's are as stated mostly sold in person whereby the potential buyer can appreciate, and would pay extra for, the beauty of the card for that grade.
Steve
<< <i><<< I'm on the record as saying that I don't think PSA gives volume submittors breaks on their grades. Here, in a nutshell, is why. >>>
Absolutely correct - To add to these points and I've also stated this before...these huge submitters, not always but for the most part are going to sell their "high end for the grade" cards privately or in their card shops. The "low end for the grade" cards are going to be sold on ebay whereby even with a clear scan, all the little imperfections are not as noticable. So what you're seeing on ebay is mostly the "low end for the grade" cards that gives the appearance that the big dealer is receiving favorable treatment. For the most part the high end say 8's that are very close to 9's are as stated mostly sold in person whereby the potential buyer can appreciate, and would pay extra for, the beauty of the card for that grade.
Steve >>
That, or the high end cards are resubmitted over and over until they finally end up as 'low end for the grade' cards (although I don't think there's any percentage in cracking your run of the mill 60's or 70's common)
I would use "grade shade"....
What's the difference between a high eight and a low nine when there is an implied 1/2 grade shading as voiced on this site numerous times.
Now, let's pretend I'm Joe Schmoe, grader and I flip the card and see submission 4445096 - Line #206...what do I know?? where is the card from??? Danny Dinkus from Dallas or DSL???
What did I just hear in the employee meeting....how great our dealers are and how much they mean to our current and future success...rah! RAH!
What do I do with the human shading discretion I have available to me??? What does the second grader do??
QED #1
_________________________________
What should I do to keep my biggest customers happy (the secret of what's in it for PSA)...let's see...cut fees to $5/ card saving $2-10 or shade the grade from an 8 to a 9 and give them $100- $1500 market value per card??? Give me a while to figure that out.
QED #2
____________________________
GOT A #3 ?????
As Boopotts pointed out, how many people would you have to keep quiet? What do you do about the graders who leave PSA? How do you keep them quiet?
I think there is some natural jealousy that goes into these theories, like 'how come they get all the good grades!' and wondering how can it be that they have so many high end cards. I think it's buying massive amounts of cards, only sending in the best of the best, and only selling those few.
Also as was mentioned, what's in it for PSA? Do you think they'd risk their reputation to placate a couple high volume submitters? Do you think they'd risk a fiasco to keep a couple big submitters happy?
If these graders are as great as everyone says, the turnip truck is nowhere in sight. They know who signs the paycheck, they like their paycheck, job, status with #1 company, status quo, supporting their families......rare motivators don't you think??
I used to be a Democrat and couldn't figure these things out...then I learned how to read.
Heh? I can see your point, but it isn't logical if you understand how business works. If I'm a manager at PSA teaching a new employee how to grade...if that employee is undergrading or overgrading as to the way he/she was taught, and doesn't correct it quickly...they are going to be fired. PSA is traditionally tough on grading which is the right way to do it. So why would an employee have any incentive whatsoever to intentionally overgrade? Just doesn't make sense.
I am sure for every one possible overgrade, DSL/4SC has 10 of undergrades.
I wouldn't say I've never felt like I should have received better grades on certain cards I've submitted....who hasn't? That's quite normal I'm sure. But to stretch those thoughts and co-mingle them with thoughts of what one thinks big time dealers are getting from PSA and trying to develope those insignificant thoughts into conspiracy theory's? Please!
The PSA conspiracy theorists have nothing better to do than attempt to slam this that and who knows what else because that's what they enjoy doing.
If these guys love SGC so much.......Why the hell are they over here?
They are trolls pure and simple, if SGC was so much better then they wouldn't be over here trying to change our minds.
I ONLY collect PSA graded cards, the only time you will see me buy a card in another holder is because it is selling alot cheaper and I will be better off buying that card and submitting it to PSA.
PSA's services have too many advantages too list with the best set registry being number one in my book.
I collect the cards and not the holders so these arguments whether this card is an 8 or 9 or whatever have no bearing on me because if it is an ugly card it won't be in my collection whether the label reads 8, 9, or 10. I have and will continue to pick better looking 7's and 8's over uglier 9's. To me centering is #1 so thats what I collect, well centered graded examples of the sets I am working on.
In my Minoso sets I have a PSA 4 1952 Topps Minnie Minoso Rc. Is it because I don't want to have a higher grade there? No, it is there because it looks great. I have passed on 5's and 6's in the last month that did not look as nice as my 4. Until I find an affordable card in a higher grade that looks nicer than my psa 4 this card will stay put in my set.
If more people were concerned about the eye appeal than the number attached to the label these arguments wouldn't happen.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>Nobody tells anyone anything...its called implied or referent knowledge.
If these graders are as great as everyone says, the turnip truck is nowhere in sight. They know who signs the paycheck, they like their paycheck, job, status with #1 company, status quo, supporting their families......rare motivators don't you think??
I used to be a Democrat and couldn't figure these things out...then I learned how to read. >>
The graders don't know who submitted the cards. That's why you put stickers on the Card Savers.
Also, congrats on learning how to read. With hard work (and a little bit of luck) you may one day reach the lofty intellectual stratus of our current president. Best of luck!
Stingray
<< <i>
<< <i>
The graders don't know who submitted the cards. That's why you put stickers on the Card Savers.
q]
I checked with George W. and he says that if the sticker says "line#206" its PROBABLY not from a collector and MAY be from a big dealer
who am I kidding though , most people are not honest with themseves and get all excited, then they come on the boards and pat themselves on the back that the card they thought was a 7 came back and 8 or the 8 came back a 9 and chalk it up to their are very conservative with their pregrading and too tough on evaluating their own cards
Now that's quite possible and very probable that the big dealers would receive volume discounts which are not given to regular customers. Most companies do this with their big accounts.
<<< I don't say anything but when I get a referral from the owner of my #1 referral source I guarantee I give that client better treatment than some guy that calls me out of the yellow pages. >>>
Heh? Comparing a situation with a client referral for legal services versus an "assembly line" business such as PSA? That's really not a good comparison at all.
"If these guys love SGC so much.......Why the hell are they over here?"
Very simple, there is a wealth of hobby information here that has nothing to do with PSA. Errors, variations, price trends, you name it. Its a nice place to gain info.
"They are trolls pure and simple, if SGC was so much better then they wouldn't be over here trying to change our minds."
I am not a troll but rather a participant. I do believe that for my collection SGC does an overall better job. You choose the company that you like. If you drive a Ford and I drive a Chevy, am I not allowed to drive down your street?
<< <i><<< First of all, they get cards graded way cheaper >>>
Now that's quite possible and very probable that the big dealers would receive volume discounts which are not given to regular customers. Most companies do this with their big accounts.
<<< I don't say anything but when I get a referral from the owner of my #1 referral source I guarantee I give that client better treatment than some guy that calls me out of the yellow pages. >>>
Heh? Comparing a situation with a client referral for legal services versus an "assembly line" business such as PSA? That's really not a good comparison at all. >>
<< <i>I give that client better treatment than some guy that calls me out of the yellow pages >>
All people who come to me for "service" deserve exactly the same treatment.
I'm not sure what you mean?
mike
edit: then again, maybe I'm not good at schmoozing and that's why I'm not rich?
<< <i>
<< <i><<< First of all, they get cards graded way cheaper >>>
Now that's quite possible and very probable that the big dealers would receive volume discounts which are not given to regular customers. Most companies do this with their big accounts.
<<< I don't say anything but when I get a referral from the owner of my #1 referral source I guarantee I give that client better treatment than some guy that calls me out of the yellow pages. >>>
Heh? Comparing a situation with a client referral for legal services versus an "assembly line" business such as PSA? That's really not a good comparison at all. >>
<< <i>I give that client better treatment than some guy that calls me out of the yellow pages >>
All people who come to me for "service" deserve exactly the same treatment.
I'm not sure what you mean?
mike
edit: then again, maybe I'm not good at schmoozing and that's why I'm not rich?
What does "polite" have to do with anything here? Your comparison wasn't good and it's not even close - simple as that. If you're that thin-skinned and think that's means somebody is a jerk...then so be it judge.
As far as the conspiracy theory goes, the best explanation of this seems to be the sheer volume of cards they (DSL, 4SC etc) grade simply magnifies the amount of "slider" grades that are issued to everyone. That, combined with the tremendous number of raw cards they go through for submissions, allows them to submit only the cream of the crop.
Stingray
Answering your question makes my point look less significant to back up Steve's suggestion that I made a poor comparison as I get further from the small point I was making. Yes, all people one serves deserve the same treatment but they don't all get it. I try very hard to treat everybody the same. However, if I receive two voice messages at one time I will call back the one from the big referral source first. Let me take a different example. I work with banks and stock brokerage houses a lot in my line of work. Banks offer different services and charge different fees for different levels of clients (i.e. more money better service). B of A has preferred banking for customers of a certain level, Wells Fargo has Private Banking for $5mil and up clients, etc.... Do you think Wells Fargo treats their private bank clients the same as they do a little guy like me? It wasn't a big point in the first place so I will leave it at that. I am sorry I wasn't able to add more to the conversation today. peace
How are the graders supposed to know the sender of the cards that they are grading?
Even if it says the invoice number and line #, how can they know who submitted them? I would think that the huge submitters can get the bargain price based on an estimated year's worth of submissions so they dont have to send in 5,000 at a time, but any number of small, medium or large submissions when they get them ready. This would make their 200 card submission the same as my 200 card submission.
Unless the submitters send their cards in colored card savers or put identifying marks on the card savers, I dont understand how it is thought that the graders would know who sent them in.
Q: Will giving favorable grades to high-volume submitters lead to more submissions from those submitters?
A: No. You are PSA. You are the leading grading company for a reason. PSA cards, for the most part, command the highest prices compared to other grading companies. The submitters know this. They'll submit just the same.
Q: But what about "sliders"--cards that could go either way, say a 7 or an 8. How do we decide what grade to give? Is it OK, then, to give the benefit of the doubt to high-volume submitters?
A: No. Remember, you have a guarantee that states that YOU will pay the difference to a collector if a card is deemed to be overgraded. The high-volume submitters don't. You have standards. If you consistently find that cards lie between grading standards, adjust your standards.
Q: But high-volume submitters expect favorable grades. They spend a great deal of money with us and we want to ensure they continue to. So we might occasionally slide an 8 over to a 9. Big deal!
A: Reread the answers to the first two questions. ALL submitters expect FAIR grades. In addition, high-volume submitters get rewarded with reduced grading costs. That's enough.
Q: So, what you're saying is, that there is no economical reason to give favorable grades?
A: Yes, exactly. In addition to not needing to give favorable grades to increase revenue, you risk losing your number one position if the collecting public ever found out about it. Remember, as has been said, you'll still get the submissions, so there is no need to risk ruining your hard earned reputation. It's simply not worth it.
Q: Thanks!
A: Always glad to help!
<< <i>Stone-
Answering your question makes my point look less significant to back up Steve's suggestion that I made a poor comparison as I get further from the small point I was making. Yes, all people one serves deserve the same treatment but they don't all get it. I try very hard to treat everybody the same. However, if I receive two voice messages at one time I will call back the one from the big referral source first. Let me take a different example. I work with banks and stock brokerage houses a lot in my line of work. Banks offer different services and charge different fees for different levels of clients (i.e. more money better service). B of A has preferred banking for customers of a certain level, Wells Fargo has Private Banking for $5mil and up clients, etc.... Do you think Wells Fargo treats their private bank clients the same as they do a little guy like me? It wasn't a big point in the first place so I will leave it at that. I am sorry I wasn't able to add more to the conversation today. peace >>
Larry
That's why I asked you what do you mean? You referenced the "hi priority" client over the "yellow page client" - I live in the real world - I totally understand what you mean - from a corporate point of view - I love big corporate mentality about as much as the next guy (LOL).
Having said that - I don't agree with how the little guy is treated - some companies are waking up to the idea that a 1000 little guys just may be easier to handle than a few big fish who will drive you crazy, think they own you and have a sense of entitlement that will drive any normal person crazy!
I apologize for picking up on this since it was not the topic.
In the end, I want PSA to treat me with the same respect, deference and kindness that they treat 4shortcorners and ITrimmumDaily!
So, in the end, I'm a little out of line for going off topic.
mike
I am thin skinned, as Stevek pointed out, but since the question was from you I did not take offense... as I did from Stevek a person I do not "know" and has not earned my respect as you have. I tend to appreciate the kind way you state your opinion when you disagree. Stevek reminds me of this guy, earlier this year or last year, who was from the south and went into a tirade on one thread about people living in the 'burbs, making idle threats to start fights with them, etc....
Though there are many sound arguments above I bet a nickle we have the same (or similar) thread within a week and DaBig will say his thing, and the beat goes on and on.... I took a month off from the boards but they are looking about the same.
peace
The hobby moves slowly, Larry. Be patient
<< <i>Here is some food for thought.
If these guys love SGC so much.......Why the hell are they over here?
They are trolls pure and simple, if SGC was so much better then they wouldn't be over here trying to change our minds.
>>
VintageJeff: What person in this thread, prior to your posting, is an SGC troll? Is Boopotts and evil SGC troll? He is the one that started the thread. You are the first person to bring up the term SGC? In any case, you need to chill out with conspiracy theories and troll talk. Do you believe in the boogie man?
I do think that any grader with a 50-count stack of 1989 Donruss Curt Schillings in front of him, and the first 38 are PSA 10's, might tend to bear down a bit less on the remaining 12.
I do think these graders know when they are dealing with a submission from DSL or 4SC or a handful of others, even though submissions are anonymous on the grading floor. Who else submits a dozen 50-card stacks of Gem Mint 1989 Donruss Curt Schillings at one time? Knowing these dealers usually submit the cream of the crop, a grader may ease off a bit, give his eyes a break toward the end of a session ... sorta like umpires give certain pitchers a wider strike zone. It's probably not even conscious.
I do think DSL and 4SC, after their bazillion submissions, are not ignorant of how this works and thus may slip a couple "sliders" near the bottom of the 50-count stacks.
larryallen73 - Wow...a thin-skinned lawyer! That's quite a rarity or you may be the first thin-skinned lawyer ever - LOL. You certainly have a vivid imagination of me reminding you of some other guy picking fights simply because I disagreed with your one comment, succinctly replied to it, and didn't use a smiley face? If you're gonna state your opinions on this forum or virtually any other forum, best be prepared for some counterpoints that won't always be worded as "politely" as you like. This isn't Sesame Street.
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is some food for thought.
If these guys love SGC so much.......Why the hell are they over here?
They are trolls pure and simple, if SGC was so much better then they wouldn't be over here trying to change our minds.
>>
VintageJeff: What person in this thread, prior to your posting, is an SGC troll? Is Boopotts and evil SGC troll? He is the one that started the thread. You are the first person to bring up the term SGC? In any case, you need to chill out with conspiracy theories and troll talk. Do you believe in the boogie man? >>
My comments stemmed from an earlier thread on this same subject that was started just before this one.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>This isn't Sesame Street. >>
Even Sesame Street has trolls.