Buying The Plastic Not The Coin ?
GOLDSAINT
Posts: 2,148 ✭
Here is a little something for all coin collectors, but World coin collectors in particular, to consider.
I just purchased all the new Krause books from 1600 to 2005 in total they include about 8,000 pages of coins, how many total coins I don’t know, but loads.
Current estimates from the numismatic community is that China alone will add 13 million new collectors in the next decade, India may approach the same, add an additional 2 million worldwide, and you could estimate something approaching 28 million new collectors.
Unlike U.S. collectors who have never seen a collapse in their paper currencies, many other countries have seen their paper money go to nothing multiple times, so they keep their money hidden away in coins and precious metals. In India 80% of savings is put into some type of precious metal savings, and only 20% goes into their stock market.
My friends in China are already telling me that as the price of coins worldwide increase in value the forgers are coming out in force, and many Chinese will only buy certified coins or coins in original sealed plastic issue packages.
One Chinese coin collector in the U.S. has even developed a website listing all of the Chinese Ebay sellers that are selling fakes, that list already includes 33 dealers, more on that later.
It is hard enough to become an expert in just one series area of U.S. coins but it is nearly impossible in longer older world coin series.
In the case of hammered coins, or molded coins, making fakes is an easy proposition for not only the Chinese but other forgers around the World.
During the last 5 years we have already seen certified coins exceed their raw counterparts in price by sometimes as much as 40%, and very little of the U.S. market contains actual fakes.
During the last 3 years we have seen the World market take off in price where many high grade coins now meet or exceed their Krause values, and this is particular the case in certified coins.
So here is my prediction. Within the next five years certified world coin prices will exceed raw coin prices by at least 50%, and many raw coins that go to market will be looked at as potential fakes, and reflect that in the prices. In fact it may come to pass that after being burned a few times with not only fakes, but damaged coins, many of the millions of “NEW” World collectors will only buy certified coins.
GOT SLABS?
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My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away....
<< <i>My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away.... >>
This would actually be very easy to do.
It is always fine to say educate yourself before buying a coin, but in many instances this is just not possible. Many dealers say the best way to educate yourself is to look at hundreds or thousands of coins to compare each. Then you will be able to tell if a coin is cleaned or not. This isn't very practical for many people. Verbal descriptions only go so far. Is the proof coin cleaned or are those hairlines as made?
Slabbed coins are not 100% guarenteed to be problem free, I have seen problem coins in every type TPG holder, but for now it is the best we have.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>In the case of hammered coins, or molded coins, making fakes is an easy proposition for not only the Chinese but other forgers around the World. >>
Not necessarily. How do you make a brand new forgery of a medieval coin look like an 800 year old coin? Chances are with modern technology it'll look 'too good'.
<< <i>GOT SLABS? >>
Unfortunately i've got one and that's far too many. The coin is going to come out i asure you. I'm awaiting the arrival of coin (a dirt cheap lincoln cent) in an identical slab so i have a practice break out before i go trying to free the gold.
Either i will get it free or i will simply pay someone to break it out for me. Over my dead body is it staying slabbed.
<< <i>Three or four years ago I would have disagreed somewhat with the points made, but I am in full agreement now. With all the whizzed and fake coins for sale out there, I am very wary of sight-unseen picture-only coins.
My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away.... >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Three or four years ago I would have disagreed somewhat with the points made, but I am in full agreement now. With all the whizzed and fake coins for sale out there, I am very wary of sight-unseen picture-only coins.
My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away.... >>
I do believe counterfeit slabs have already been done.
I'm sicjk to the back teeth of people saying 'slabs offer protection', rubbish, knowledge offers protection. Knowledge is the only way to be safe in coin collecting. I've seen overgraded coins (blatantly so) slabbed, the buyer buys it thinking it is what it says on the slab, even if they don't believe the coin is the grade the slab says they hope the dealer will be forced to accept it as such. The dealer just turns around and says it's overgraded and buys it at the price they'd buy it for raw.
Slabbing does not help the collector at all, it just helps some dealers to screw the collectors more. (Wow this is graded MS62? I wouldn't grade that EF, but as a seller i'll sell it at MS62 and agree with the grade when selling, when buying from collectors i'll say it's overgraded).
Problem coins slip past and get slabbed, counterfiets get slabbed too. Putting faith in slabs is the layman's approach to collecting. One day it'll backfire.
The best thing you can do is to read as much as you can, learn how to grade yourself, handle as many as possible and learn it for yourself, don't put trust in anything but your own acquired judgement. Thirsd party grading leads to commercialisation and consumerism, grading with eye appeal included! Who's eye appeal? Is this really as objective as they portray?
Sorry but if slabbing becomes mainstream in Europe i'm quitting coins and moving onto collecting antiques. I've already got some pocket watches i can soon get back into them.
<< <i>I've seen overgraded coins (blatantly so) slabbed, the buyer buys it thinking it is what it says on the slab, even if they don't believe the coin is the grade the slab says they hope the dealer will be forced to accept it as such >>
Ah! Here is the problem with the European thinking on this. They have to realize that the slabbing companies are all located in the US. TPGs grade according to US grading standards which are very different from English, German, Danish, etc standards. When buying a slabbed coin the buyer must realize this.
To say a NGC MS62 is grossly overgraded by British standards is a given. Because you are comparing apples with oranges. It is not correct to compare the two.
Also, the issue of authenticity is also a good one. Has anyone found a counterfeit coin in a leading TPG slab? If so, how many? A dozen maybe? Out of the millions of coins slabbed, the odds are very good the coin you buy will be authentic.
I admit I am not an expert in all types of coins. Ha, I'm not an expert in any type of coins. I like to collect coins but I don't have the time, resources, or energy to do indepth research into the authenticity of every coin I want to buy. I have a family, job, and life outside coin collecting. By buying a slab, for usually a small nominal fee over a raw coin, the 'experts' have done the work for me. You may called this lazyness, I call it time mangement.
I once bought a $250 raw coin from a leading dealer in ancient coins. I sent it to a TPG and it came back as 'not authentic'. Now either the dealer or the slabbing company was wrong. The coin can't be both fake and real. I went by the advice of the slabbing company and returned the coin. I did get a full refund, including the slabbing fees.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
When it comes to coin collecting i'm entirely selfish, my coins are for me. If other people like them, well yeah that's nice, if i have kids one day and one of them happens to take an interest in the coins for what they are then that's even better and i would nurture any interest in coinage they might have and i dare say they'd get whatever is around after i've kicked the bucket.
However should any forthcoming children only see the coin for the £££'s then i'm afraid i wouldn't leave them a single coin if i could help it, i'd sell the whole lot. Any coins that are left after i'm dead and gone a will and testament will ensure they go where they will be appreciated and that the family don't get their hands on them. Should the family get them and they do anything stupid with them like clean them, well frankly it's their own fault. There'll be a whole pile of books here that they could have read and every single one will say "Don't Clean!".
I'm not in it for the money, never was. I'm in it for the history, the closest i can get back to being in 1755 is to have a coin from the period, that antique book dated from the 1750s i've got on the shelf and a few antique odds and ends here and there. Ideally i'd trade the whole lot in for a nice time machine... i think two days would be ample to get the true 1750s experience. Also i'd have to buy a George II guineabefore i went, find a bank somewhere and exchange it for sixpences. Then come back with the sixers.
<< <i>I have a family, job, and life outside coin collecting. By buying a slab, for usually a small nominal fee over a raw coin, the 'experts' have done the work for me. You may called this lazyness, I call it time mangement. >>
Coin collecting is my life. 'Experts'? None of them are experts with British coins from what i've seen, and i'm no expert but even i can spot where they went wrong. No way was that Queen Anne shilling MS63. (Which would be AUNC in UK grades), more like EF. (It should have been AU58 in your grades). I can't believe i'm talking about grades i sound like someone off of the liteside.
Neither of us are going to win each other round, you like slabs, i do not nor will i convert. Slabs will be condemned by me for the simple fact i like to hold my coins, i don't even like them in 2x2s, it's not naked enough. I like to feel the metal, feel the fingerprints of the 1880s hansom cab driver on the edge.
All the people that might have handled the coin; Jack the Ripper, Dr Crippen, Charles Dickens, Bram Stoker, Arthur Conan Doyle, Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, George Stephenson, some ordinary guy working in a steel foundry, a woman running a tavern. It's the intimate feeling of being at one with history, of being interwoven with the past.
Sometimes i don't give much thought to it as i might, but when i was holding one of my Anglo-Saxon pennies the other day, i could feel the history. I though "i'm the last person to touch this coin at present, the first person to handle it was an Anglo-Saxon". To think this coin was already seen as old when the Battle of Hastings was fought. That is a remarkable feeling i can tell you. You can feel that you're almost there, the only thing that stands between you and the coins issue date and all those that spent it is a mere 1000 years (in geological time that's what the blink of an eyelid if that?)
I think maybe King Eadmund held this himself? A man who was there, a man who was part of history, who was written about, a man who's actions then influnced the way were are now. This goes for every individual that has ever lived regardless of who they were.
Holding a coin in plastic just doesn't feel the same. There'd be no point me owning the coin, i might as well go and visit it every other week in the museum, it'd be cheaper and i can admire it from behind the glass. It's as intimate as a slab gets.
All of which I find extremely fascinating.
Forgeries have been around since coins began and will continue as long as coins exist, they are a fact of life and no matter what measures are taken forgers will always try and will have varying degrees of success.
There is no "sudden outpouring" of forgeries from China, China has forged coins longer than the Western world has existed, the Russians are also quite prolific, not to mention the Lebonese, Italy also had a few daliances in them as well.
Knowledge is the only weapon against them, whichever way you choose, either to gain it yourself or pay someone else to do it for you.
<< <i>Coin collecting is my life. Experts? None of them are experts with British coins from what i've seen, and I'm no expert either but even I can spot where they went wrong. No way was that Queen Anne shilling MS63. (Which would be AUNC in UK grades), more like EF (It should have been AU58 in your grades). I can't believe I'm talking about grades I sound like someone off of the liteside. >>
Resistance is futile ... give in to the will of _The Master_ and convert ...
Happy Rock Wrens
You're having delusions of grandeur again. - Susan Ivanova
Well, if you're gonna have delusions, may as well go for the really satisfying ones. - Marcus Cole
<< <i>Faking an 800-year old coin is far easier than counterfeiting a 100-year old coin. Some of the fake Chinese ancients are frankly quite beautiful and very, very hard to distinguish from the authentic pieces. >>
Qualifier, it does depend on the series that is true. I should think faking an English groat or a gold noble takes a bit more time. You have to make sure the lettering is correct for the type as well, right combination of lombardics and roman. Right kind of mintmarks etc.
“My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away....”
Anything is possible but with each coin numbered and with grade and type being able to be checked on the certifiers website I don’t see that as a large looming problem.
“Not necessarily. How do you make a brand new forgery of a medieval coin look like an 800 year old coin? Chances are with modern technology it'll look 'too good'.”
The Chinese in particular already have the ageing process down. Go some time on Ebay and look at the hundreds of fake weapons coming out of China, most of these look 2,000 years old.
“I'm sicjk to the back teeth of people saying 'slabs offer protection', rubbish, knowledge offers protection. Knowledge is the only way to be safe in coin collecting. I've seen overgraded coins (blatantly so) slabbed,”
This is true of course, but just how are 28 million overseas customers going to examine the coins?
Here is another prediction, within five years the majority of coin sales will be to overseas customers and 95% of all coin sales will be sight unseen purchases via the internet.
“Ah! Here is the problem with the European thinking on this. They have to realize that the slabbing companies are all located in the US. TPGs grade according to US grading standards which are very different from English, German, Danish, etc standards.”
I am sure this may also be true ,but I have not read anything that says to expect a big bump in European collectors, in fact I think these folks like many Americans may be net sellers. Certainly most dealers will sell to any one any where, and lets face it the American dollar is declining in value against the currencies of many countries giving them stronger buying power.
As to agreeing with the many posters that have stopped buying RAW I of course agree.
So here is my story, and keep in mind I have collected for 40 years and was a dealer for three.
Two years ago I submitted my world collection to NGC out of approximately 120 coins 32 were bodybaged, cleaned, not authentic, damaged, etc.
I think i'll have to just start offering dealers 10% extra on each slabbed purchase if they'll do me the honour of cracking the coin out for me before they send it. This i'm willing to do. Anything to get them raw.
I've had two slabbed coins and i can tell you that was two too many.
What will slabbing do to availability and scarcity? If TPGs arise who both buy coins and then certify their own coins for resale (likely to be your TV infomercial types) distrust will likely result, whether warranted or not. But furthermore, once a coin is in a slab, does that change the fluidity of the coin? Will people be more inclined to hold onto that high-grade slab longer before resale? Will people be reluctant to crossover already slabbed coins or break them out? Etc. If these trends happen on a larger scale than at present it may create an artificial scarcity for types.
Other topic: Counterfeiting slabs. Probably the surest bet in this thread. Chinese cigarette counterfeiters almost dominate the industry throughout SE Asia. The legit manufacturers are constantly changing the packaging to thwart counterfeiting and aid in contraband recognition. But the counterfeiters retool their product with an average response time of a week. (Absurdly fast) So, what is to prevent the counterfeiting of slabs? Sure, the volume is greatly smaller, but it is very much doable on the cheap. Even corresponding fakes to searchable databases is not that great a hurdle. Afterall, despite changes in database security, the slab serials are constant until cracked out. You may find a hundred of the same type coin in rough UNC masquerading as a registered MS-65 with the exact same serial, unless sold at once in a narrow location they won't be detected by the non-expert. The experts will become skeptical of that type and serial, the TPG will have to invest in anti-fraud teams to identify these and withdraw the serial, and after a rash of this behavior, general confidence in certifications may decrease, taking prices with them.
<< <i>However should any forthcoming children only see the coin for the £££'s then i'm afraid i wouldn't leave them a single coin if i could help it, i'd sell the whole lot.
--Syl >>
This is how you can tell Syl is young
I think I had another point for this thread but I fogot what it was...
My wantlist & references
Who knows?
My wantlist & references
Hey sylvestius,
Coin collecting is great “ to each his own” besides us slab guys don’t need the competition, there are not nearly enough to go around.
Taking a quick look at Ebay today there where 36,387 World coins and all the PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG coins came to 452.
In Ancient it was much worse out of 5,804 there were only 7 slabbed by the above.
Out of the 15 slabbed world coins I bid retail on this past week I won 2 and several of the auctions I lost had 15 to 20 bidders, geese who needs the aggravation Ha Ha.
<< <i>Aha! Also, a counter-example to the trend: As newsman and others have been noticing, Portuguese coins and those of its former colonies are skyrocketing in price, especially in BU. But I have yet to notice a sizable portion of the market in slabs. Even so the prices are astronomical and the presence of plastic doesn't seem to greatly effect the equation.
Who knows? >>
Not just Portuguese coins, but Italian and Greek as well, and probably a few I haven't noticed.
One thing that should be pointed out about coins of Portugal and colonies, including Brazil, is that a huge number of available coins are cleaned, and that's considered a perfectly respectable practice. Buy a raw coin sight-unseen from a reputable dealer, and you might get a bad surprise. Here's a case where slabbing is a benefit, because it gives buyers in what is still the world's largest coin market the confidence to pay multiples of catalog value for a scarce coin in nice condition.
Kind of on that theme, regarding Italy but also injecting another angle, and this may seem archaic to most... from what I've seen private dealer "guarantees" (on authenticity and/or grade) are still fairly popular even on resale. These are a sort of personal slab, see this ebay search for examples. Interesting that this phenomenon still persists. Italy is the only place that I know of that uses these studded flips (though I may not be paying attention!) Any comments or thoughts on these dealer guarantees?
My wantlist & references
<< <i>True about the acceptability of cleaned coins. Even so, it's odd that there's not that visible segment of the community fed up with the custom and demanding slabs. It seems Greece is moving in this direction though. (I can't say how much of it is US buyers, but it seems Greek slabs are fairly popular.)
Kind of on that theme, regarding Italy but also injecting another angle, and this may seem archaic to most... from what I've seen private dealer "guarantees" (on authenticity and/or grade) are still fairly popular even on resale. These are a sort of personal slab, see this ebay search for examples. Interesting that this phenomenon still persists. Italy is the only place that I know of that uses these studded flips (though I may not be paying attention!) Any comments or thoughts on these dealer guarantees? >>
Lots of scarce Italian coins are counterfeited. It's like the 1916-D dime -- there are more counterfeits out there than originals.
I would guess that Italian dealers know that no one from the States will buy any raw Italian coin without an ironclad guarantee of authenticity. I certainly won't.
The fact that more fake coins are coming on to the market does not make me trust slabbed coins more. Yes, they seem to be getting more expensive. Yes, more people around the globe are beginning to trust them. And if you don't have the ability to determine whether a certain coin type is fake or not the only option is to buy a slabbed piece. But the grading is fairly useless when you live in Scandinavia like I do. If I buy a low-end MS coin chances are that I will get an AU coin by our standards, so I would have to pay loads of money to get a MS65 or better to be absolutely sure. For me there is lots of money to save on finding a nice raw coin.
Personally I only buy raw coins. When buying on Ebay I stay away from coins that could be forgeries - such coins I will only buy in a place where I can handle the coin myself. Nothing more to it, really.
Marcel
Besides that companies such as GGC can only exist because people buy the plastic, not the coin.
Marcel
<< <i>But the grading is fairly useless when you live in Scandinavia like I do. If I buy a low-end MS coin chances are that I will get an AU coin by our standards, so I would have to pay loads of money to get a MS65 or better to be absolutely sure. For me there is lots of money to save on finding a nice raw coin. >>
I agree with that remark. As some may note i collect silver Washington quarters somewhat luke warmly. Now i wanted them in UNC, so i did a few trades with some US members and the standard of coins i were getting might be UNC in the US but it certainly wasn't what i'd call UNC. Then one day as a surprise on member sent me some BU ones with full lustre and that was it i simply ditched all the others an i'm now working on a BU set. Getting these full lustre Washers is alot cheaper when they are raw. So raw i go.
Going with UK coins and that aforementioned Queen Anne EF shilling graded MS63, the dealer would sell it at UNC prices which i can tell you is a lot higher than EF prices. And for what? A coin i'd not be impressed with at all. I'd rather buy an EF raw one for full book price, no way a dealer could pass that off as UNC, no way that i'd fall for it anyway.
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Neo...
<< <i>...remember that European dealers are still extremely hostile to slabs and will do anything to give them a bad name. I'm very tired of this old generation and the horror stories they make up for slabs. It's still a new thing, they hate it and think that it will go away. >>
As a steadfast numismatic conservative i resent that remark. As far as US collectors go they seem to think my methods are positively Victorian. We Brits like our mahogany coin cabinets, the British museum uses them and several of us younger members on the predecimal forums also take great pride in using traditional methods. Most of the dealers i've come across tend to make use of the plastic coin tray methods. The last time i went to a British coin fair i didn't see one slabbed coin anywhere.
I don't even like 2x2s, much less slabs.
I wouldn't call your methods "Victorian," but I think you're missing a very important point Dimitri is making, and I was wondering how you would answer this question:
How do you know that a coin is "all there" in grade and originality if you can't hold it in hand?
<< <i>Syl,
I wouldn't call your methods "Victorian," but I think you're missing a very important point Dimitri is making, and I was wondering how you would answer this question:
How do you know that a coin is "all there" in grade and originality if you can't hold it in hand? >>
I buy generally coin in hand, most of my purchases are from coin shops and fairs. Sometimes i buy from internet dealers with good pictures, trusted dealers at that. If i get the coin and i don't like it i return it for the refund stated.
Dealers without refunds/return policies and without pics i refuse to buy from. My number 1 rule is never buy coins off of ebay.
Noe
There are lots of things to consider if you are going to certify part of your collection, and then start collecting certified coins. I am sure others will have things to contribute, but I will get you started.
First you need to look at all of the values of your coins and only certify truly rarer coins or coins that have at least some value. My cut off point is a minimum of $250 before I even consider certification.
Don’t just slab everything, as dealers do not pay for slabs if you decide to sell that way.
There are actually lots of good coins that can be purchased, on Ebay for example, for what I call the slab fee.
It costs about $5.00 to mail a coin in insured and $5.00 to get it back on average certifiers charge $15 to $20 per coin, so a slab fee is $25 to $30 dollars.
Next take a good loop and look at your coins very carefully to see if they have been cleaned, have rim dings, where once mounted in jewelry, have environmental damage, gouges etc. etc. Don’t waste your time and money sending in these coins, as only one in one thousand might be lucky enough to make it into a slab.
Remember most certification companies do not refund money for bodybags and postage.
The biggest change a collector can make is STOP buying junk and buy certified to begin with. Remember that coins don’t have to be real expensive but quality should always come first. Also remember there are no real expert graders in the World that can really grade over 100 coins, even after decades of study. If you don’t believe me look at some of the biggest and best collections that come on the market.
All of Eliasberg’s World coins were sent to be certified before sale, and that is always the case with good collections. Now go on Ebay and look at all of the NCS coins on the market that say Eliasberg. They are in these slabs because Mr. Eliasberg, even with all of his money, unlimited contacts, and decades of collecting got fooled. I can almost guarantee you that were he alive today and had seen how many of his coins got bodybaged he would only be buying certified coins.
I hope that helps get you started.
I would respectfully disagree.
(1) The owner of the original can counterfeit that coin and slab. It will show up as "genuine."
(2) ebay buyers in general don't research whether a coin is in the pop report or not. World coins sometimes don't show up in pop reports.
Granted, it is unlikely that a Heritage or Goldberg or a NEN would ever sell a counterfeit slab (they are apt to detect such problems long before advertised for sale). Sellers out of China, where fakes are becoming rampant, could do this to their hearts' content and virtually with impunity.
<< <i>
<< <i>Syl,
I wouldn't call your methods "Victorian," but I think you're missing a very important point Dimitri is making, and I was wondering how you would answer this question:
How do you know that a coin is "all there" in grade and originality if you can't hold it in hand? >>
I buy generally coin in hand, most of my purchases are from coin shops and fairs. Sometimes i buy from internet dealers with good pictures, trusted dealers at that. If i get the coin and i don't like it i return it for the refund stated.
Dealers without refunds/return policies and without pics i refuse to buy from. My number 1 rule is never buy coins off of ebay. >>
Ah, there's the rub.
It's easy to buy raw when the coin is in-hand and you can apply your experience and knowledge. And when you use a trusted dealer off the Internet, you're in effect trusting his opinion to some extent, rather than that of a TPG. No problem with that, we all do it.
But what about the coins you can't see and the dealers you don't know? A lot of people here do buy off eBay.
The coin for sale in this thread has a mintage of 64,000. It's the only Unc. example I've ever seen, and I certainly considered bidding on it before it sold for a premium price.
So here's the problem: You see a coin you want, raw, on eBay, from a seller you don't know. All you have to go on is a picture to judge whether it's worth a strong bid. If you pass or lose, it might be a long time before you get another chance at that type of coin. What do you do? Is it worth the risk of getting a slider, or worse, a cleaned coin?
Many people -- even some experts -- would say the choice would be a lot easier if the coin were slabbed.
<< <i>
My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away.... >>
It has already been done twice. In both cases PCGS was the company who's slabs were faked. The first time was in the late 80s or early 90s with the old rattler slabs. I have also seen pictures of modern PCGS fake slabs. Th emodern ones are not very good, one that I was shown was a Bust Dollar graded AU-45 and the other used a wrong font. In both cases the part of the serial number that shows the numeric grade had something different that the grade above. My advice is to ALWAYS use the "Cert Verification" feature found on the PCGS homepage.
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>Faking an 800-year old coin is far easier than counterfeiting a 100-year old coin. Some of the fake Chinese ancients are frankly quite beautiful and very, very hard to distinguish from the authentic pieces. >>
I have seen many very good counterfeit US gold coins!
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
<< <i>So here's the problem: You see a coin you want, raw, on eBay, from a seller you don't know. All you have to go on is a picture to judge whether it's worth a strong bid. If you pass or lose, it might be a long time before you get another chance at that type of coin. What do you do? Is it worth the risk of getting a slider, or worse, a cleaned coin? >>
This has happened, i saw a king Eadmund penny on ebay that i needed for my set. These things don't turn up often. Sure it looked nice enough but i was prepared to wait for one off of a more respectable dealer, as i said i won't buy coins from ebay. It's my principle and i stick to it rigidly.
The only coins i ever have bought off ebay have been junk condition bagfuls, usually scrap silver, cleaned, holed, bashed about... didn't so much matter as long as it was Ag.
<< <i>
<< <i>My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away.... >>
This would actually be very easy to do. >>
thats what the cert number is for.
<< So here's the problem: You see a coin you want, raw, on eBay, from a seller you don't know. All you have to go on is a picture to judge whether it's worth a strong bid. If you pass or lose, it might be a long time before you get another chance at that type of coin. What do you do? Is it worth the risk of getting a slider, or worse, a cleaned coin? >>
This has happened, i saw a king Eadmund penny on ebay that i needed for my set. These things don't turn up often. Sure it looked nice enough but i was prepared to wait for one off of a more respectable dealer, as i said i won't buy coins from ebay. It's my principle and i stick to it rigidly.
Easier said than done for some collections that are at a more advanced stage of completion. All too often I'm faced with this kind of decision, that is to buy an ultra rare ,expensive and truly important coin for my collection, from a far away land, usually the UK or the US, based only on the pictures and reliability of the seller. If the coin is raw , I will think twice and three and four times about it and will probably pass at the end. If the coin is slabbed, and the grade suits my demands, it's a no brainer.Even the return privilege is simplified with slabbed coins, with raw examples the seller can often claim that the coin is not as when it was initially sent,while with slabs all that is asked is for the slab to be intact.That's very convenient for clumsy people like me.
These things don't turn up often.
If I had to stick to a principle, similar to the one described by Sylvester, I wouldn't be owning half of the coins I own today. But then again we collect very different types of coins and maybe the meaning of rarity is also very different. Often might mean months, but might also mean years, even decades.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
If you believe that means you are safe, you may be in for a rude awakening. As I said before, why couldn't the counterfeiter retain the original and make copies of that particular piece and slab, along with the same cert number?
<< <i>thats what the cert number is for.
If you believe that means you are safe, you may be in for a rude awakening. As I said before, why couldn't the counterfeiter retain the original and make copies of that particular piece and slab, along with the same cert number? >>
Or for that matter put a real coin one grade lower in with teh real cert and fake plastic?
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>My next big fear is that the coming of couterfeit slabs is not far away.... >>
I do believe counterfeit slabs have already been done. >>
Yes they have been done. So far I've seen fake PCGS slabs, fake SEGS shells, fake ICG shells, and fake ACG shells. I have had reports of fake NGC shells but I can't confirm those. Back in the days of the photocertificates there were also reports of fake ANACS certificates.
<< <i>All of Eliasberg’s World coins were sent to be certified before sale, and that is always the case with good collections. >>
They were graded and "certified" by NGC, but they were NOT slabbed.
As for the certificate numbers, the counterfeiter just uses real certificate numbers and makes 20 or so of each. As long as he doesn't try and sell them all at the same time he will most likely get away with it, and anyone who checks the number gets back a confirmation that it's good. The number doesn't help that much.
Look at how hard this is, first collecting coins is not like collecting other types of art. Every big dollar certified coin is just to well known, large dealers and collectors know every detail of these coins and who owns them. Every time one hits the REAL market a thousand pictures are saved on computers around the world.
Second in order to make this work you must first forge the plastic holder, then forge the hologram label, then forge the cert label with the right number and bar code, then forge the coin, and not only the coin but the exact grade and wear on the coin.
Third you must sell the coins on the net because you are not going to set up a shop in Shanghai or go to shows, and when you put it on the net thousands of collectors are going to see the coin and talk to each other. As soon as the second coin in the same forged slab comes out we are going to know. If you make coins in registries your screwed right off.
The main point here is that a forger just cannot make any real money doing this. It is just too much work to make high-grade common date coins that sell for cheap dollars, and if you make anything valuable after the first sale all the sophisticated collectors in that series will be talking. Look at all the guys on Ebay that get caught in the first hour just posting a fake picture for sale of someone else’s coin.
In the old old days when coins were sold in mostly local shops, and at shows, a forger had a chance to pass off some bad slab, but those days are gone. There is just too much intel out there from club members and the NET now. The best way for a forger to survive is to make a few dozen medium grade fakes that unsophisticated RAW collectors will buy and never send to be certified. The current annual salary of a high school educated person in China is $2,000 per year a coin forger selling RAW fakes could make that in a few weeks. The temptation is overwhelming!