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Is this a Zerbe proof, Zerbe die, or Regular 1921 Morgan Dollar?

Is this a Zerbe proof, Zerbe die, or Regular 1921 Morgan Dollar? Also do the Zerbe's have 17 berries, because this one does?
Here is the link to the pictures:
Link
Thanks,
Joseph

Comments

  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    It's clearly not a Zerbe Proof.
  • Spiffy469Spiffy469 Posts: 661 ✭✭
    who or what is Zerbe?
    could someone enlighten me?

    Jeff
    I collect bits and pieces of everything
    or should I say I ACCUMULATE!
    I also dabble with the darkside image

    Ive recently gotten more into currency, especially modern star notes
  • Farren Zerbe...A veteran numismatist and official historian of the ANA
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • Spiffy469Spiffy469 Posts: 661 ✭✭
    Ahh..

    So what significance does he have with Morgan dollars?

    Jeff
    I collect bits and pieces of everything
    or should I say I ACCUMULATE!
    I also dabble with the darkside image

    Ive recently gotten more into currency, especially modern star notes
  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭
    Some 1921 Proofs were created and named Zerbe proofs. You can easily google the rest of the story.
  • wam98wam98 Posts: 2,685
    According to my VAM book, Zerbe proofs can be identified by a small die scratch from the second U in Unum to the denticles. image
    Wayne
    ******
  • Two types of proof 21s exist. A regular proof issue of 12 pieces was produced, known as Chapman proofs, because Henry chapman of Phila. persuaded the Phila mint to strike them. They have very deep mirrors and light contrast similar to the 02 & 04 proofs. They are the rarest of the Morgan proofs. A second 1921 proof is the so-called Zerbe proof. These lack the depth and mirror contrast of the Chapman proofs and are more correctly termed presentation pieces. It is estimated that 20- 200 pieces were produced to appease Zerbe because of the delay in the production of the new Peace dollars. Zerbe proofs can be identified by a small die scratch from the second "U" in Unum to the denticles. (van Allen/Mallis 4th edition Pp 388).


    Zerbe had alot to do with the Peace dollar's passing congress for mintage.
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570

    Not to be confused with Paul Taylor image
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  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>According to my VAM book, Zerbe proofs can be identified by a small die scratch from the second U in Unum to the denticles >>

    I believe that applies to Zerbe dies (from which both business strikes and Proofs were produced) and not necessarily just to the Proofs.

  • Spiffy469Spiffy469 Posts: 661 ✭✭
    Thank you for all the info razorface.

    Jeff
    I collect bits and pieces of everything
    or should I say I ACCUMULATE!
    I also dabble with the darkside image

    Ive recently gotten more into currency, especially modern star notes
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    Interesting to see this topic today, as I was just reading yesterday in QDB's Morgan Redbook that he doesn't believe the Zerbe proofs are proofs at all. He said that Zerbe was a skilled numismatist and would never have accepted those coins as proofs. He does acknowledge others do feel they are proofs.

    And can someone check the pops on the Chapman proofs? I think the book showed over 100 slabbed (combination PCGS/NGC/ANACS) even though only a dozen are supposed to exist.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Kranky, PCGS has certified 35 Chapman Proofs and NGC has graded an additional 23 of them. While I believe that more than a dozen exist, the stated populations no doubt include a multitude of resubmissions.image
  • While I believe that more than a dozen exist, the stated populations no doubt include a multitude of resubmissions.


    Wow, that really screws up the pop. Who can tell?!image



    Tom
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Mark. I'm sure some went through ANACS but probably not many. I'm sure you're right about crackouts, but there was ever a coin where it would make a lot of sense to return the tag, that would be one. If there are (making up numbers to make a point) 6 in 66 and 2 in 67, why do people keep trying a coin and not returning the tags, so it ends up as 18 66's and 2 67's? That can't be in their best self-interest.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm sure you're right about crackouts, but there was ever a coin where it would make a lot of sense to return the tag, that would be one. >>

    Fair and logical point, but you'd be amazed at how many grading labels for important/valuable coins are hoarded (at least temporarily), for one reason or another.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Zerbe" dollars are a dangerous bunch. Those coins that were struck as "Zerbe proofs" do indeed have 17 berry reverses, but so do about 25-35% of all 1921-P Morgans. Those coins that are proofy in appearance have been certified as Zerbe proofs. Some coins with 17 berries have been offered as "struck from Zerbe dies." The scratch by the U in UNUM is but one of the diagnostics of a business strike coin struck from the "Zerbe proof" dies. Leroy Van Allen recently cataloged the diagnostics of a "Zerbe proof" in excrutiating detail, calling it VAM 47, so that business strikes could be compared with it. One problem with these coins is that the transition from "proof" (which they may not technically be, anyway) to business strike is as gradual as with any other coin that goes from DMPL to PL to non-PL to soupy luster. Put another way, there are probably a lot of them. The diagnostics have been cataloged to help protect people against being offered any old 17 berry 1921 as a Zerbe coin. If legitimate business strike 1921 VAM 47 "Zerbe die" dollars enter the marketplace in sufficient quantity for a price level to be established, my guess is that the premium will be relatively low.
  • I just saved myself the mental anguish and bought a DMPL 1921-P in MS-64: it looks nicer than the Chapmans anyway--plus it was a whole bunch cheaper!image
    morgannut2
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,276 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I just saved myself the mental anguish and bought a DMPL 1921-P in MS-64: it looks nicer than the Chapmans anyway--plus it was a whole bunch cheaper!image >>


    Good move.
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    I just saved myself the mental anguish and bought a DMPL 1921-P in MS-64: it looks nicer than the Chapmans anyway--plus it was a whole bunch cheaper!

    Wow! I don't see many of them around- do you have pictures you can share?? image
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !

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