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1833 LM-5/V10 Capped Bust half dime now R7+!

MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
The 1833 LM-5/V10 Capped Bust half dime, rarest of all the CB half dimes, and heretofore represented by a mere three (3) examples (hence the R8 designation), is now an R7+, due to the appearance on eBay of a fourth, previously unknown, example. The Condition Census for this die marriage had been (63,55,20), and is now joined by another VF example. The eBay auction sale (now ended) can be seen at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8323440991&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1

The discovery piece for the 1833 LM-5/V10 was discovered nearly twenty years ago by Howard Barron and Tom Holland on Cape Cod, MA. Howard Barron, a noted collector of early copper, but not a half dime collector, chose to retain the unique piece, and was continually harrassed by CB half dime collectors, seeking to have a 'complete' collection. A Baltimore collector finally succeeded in acquiring the disvovery piece (AU-55), and was the only collector to then have a 'complete' collection of the CB half dimes.

The search for a confirming specimen of the 1833 LM-5/V10 continued in earnest for over 13 years, without success. Then, in 1997(?) the late Stan Kubacki finally located a second example (VF-20) at a Central States show. That specimen was sold to Russ Logan, who could then also claim a 'complete' set. Russ later located an MS-63 example from dealer Larry Briggs, and through a convoluted and complicated arrangement, the VF-20 specimen was sold to a noted Tennessee collector. Now there were three 'complete' collections.

After the untimely death of Russ Logan, his MS-63 specimen was sold at auction to the same Tennessee collector, who agreed to sell the VF-20 specimen to yours truly, making, once again, just three 'complete' collections.

Last week this unattributed specimen turned up unheralded on eBay, and a few savvy collectors were quick to identify it as the fourth specimen known. Early bids gave the appearance of modest bidding, at a price commensurate with a generic 1833 half dime, but spirited bidding (sniping) at closing revealed its rarity and true collector interest (not all posted bids are reflected in the Bid History). The final sale price was $4000, and the coin appears to be a nice VF, perhaps a bit better than my VF-20 example.

At present there are still just three 'complete' collections, as the successful bidder (Numiscene) is the owner of the AU-55 specimen. For those seeking an example of this, or any other rare CB half dime, take heart; there are additional unattributed examples out there just waiting to be identified and cherried by astute collectors. At present, there are no longer any R8 Capped Bust half dimes, as the existence of a fourth specimen of the 1833 LM-5/V10 places it at R7+.

They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Comments

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    BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,458 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Link to $4,000 CBHD

    I was glad to be part of the excitement. My automatic snipe didn't register as it was a bit lower than mrhalfdime's bid of $3,950.

    I will keep looking and encourage other die marriage collectors to do the same. Bust Dime specialists will tell you that many coins previously considered rare (R-5 to R-6, for example) are now less rare (R-3 to R-5) given more accurate population census results. I doubt the 1833 LM-5/V-10 will reach much lower than R-7, but I do have faith there are more to be found!
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    -George
    42/92
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    CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,920 ✭✭✭✭✭
    excellent!
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    OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Crap! image See what happens when you take a week off?image

    Congrats to Numiscene.
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
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    LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    How often do things like this turn up on ebay? Very interesting.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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    Dennis88Dennis88 Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭


    << <i>image
    Linkified >>



    Easy George. You will discover the fifthimage
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    MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    Rare die marriages of the half dimes (and presumably of the other denominations, although I do not watch them) turn up on eBay often enough to warrant keeping an alert eye peeled. Just a few weeks ago an unattributed example of the 1832 LM-9.2/V14 (R7) sold on eBay (interestingly, to the same alert buyer as the 1833 LM-5/V10). I have personally bought nice examples of the 1833 LM-2/V9 and 1833 LM-6/V8 on eBay, plus numerous lower grade examples of better die states. It certainly pays to watch the bay.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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    OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How often do things like this turn up on ebay? Very interesting. >>



    Not very often simply by virtue of the fact that these coins are actually rare not just conditionally rare. These are coins that actually earn their premium based on rarity not on the piece of plastic they are stuck into.image

    One will see R-4 (76-200 known) bust coins fairly regularly on E-bay. I have picked up several R-5 (31-75 known) and a few R-6 (13-30) over the years. One used to be able to cherrypick these with little or no premium, but over the last couple of years there have been too many specialists looking. One can still find them, but now you must pay what they are worth.

    Jim
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
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    Unfortunately, I don't have the time to sift through eBay thourghly... and I usually have to be in the right mood to be able to sit down and sift through the crap... image Though I have found an R.5 and an R.6...
    -George
    42/92
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    CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,920 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is an R5 capper on the bay right now but I'm not gonna say what it is, 5¢-10¢-25¢-50¢ image Although most everyone who's posted in this thread already knows lol.
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    BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,458 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Just a few weeks ago an unattributed example of the 1832 LM-9.2/V14 (R7) sold on eBay (interestingly, to the same alert buyer as the 1833 LM-5/V10 >>



    Thanks for reminding me that I was the underbidder on that gem too!
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    MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    "Thanks for reminding me that I was the underbidder on that gem too!"

    Sorry about that, Barndog. image Just reporting the facts. As the underbidder on the 1833 LM-5/V10, I can fully understand your disappointment. Better luck next time.

    Steve
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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    BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,458 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think my ability to find and identify CBHDs is more refined than my ability to afford them all...

    The hunt is truly enjoyable though. I am glad for competition between hobbyists.
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    BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very cool! Just goes to show that there are great coins out there still.

    I'll bet the seller was shocked at the final price, then wondered if the bidders made a mistake, then wondered if HE (the seller) made a mistake and sold it too cheap!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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    CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,920 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think my ability to find and identify CBHDs is more refined than my ability to afford them all... >>

    I'm in the same boat. I do love looking though. If I find one I get a kick out of letting a fellow bust guy know about it, at least that way I know it's going to a good home. And, if I ever can make a run at it I know who to ask image
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    mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Wow! Cool deal.


    Tom
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    Super informaton MrHalfDime. Congratulations on your owning an example of this rare Bust Half Dime. image matteproof
    Remember Lots Wife
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    BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 210 ✭✭✭✭

    I have seen this post before as I walk back through the old capped bust half dime posts on this forum. But tonight I landed on it by accident via a Google search for something only vaguely related, and had a little time so I thought I'd add to it - over 17 years later. I happened upon an example of this marriage at a Stacks auction in December 2021. Competition wasn't too tough, actually - maybe it flew under the radar, or maybe its appearance was just too off-putting. But I was happy to land it! There were four instances of it in the 2019 JRCS census: a 61, 40, 20, and 15. This G6 - which is not a details coin, in case anyone wondered - will join their ranks at the next census!

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

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    CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's not at all what I'd classify as an off-putting appearance.

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bikergeek said:
    I have seen this post before as I walk back through the old capped bust half dime posts on this forum. But tonight I landed on it by accident via a Google search for something only vaguely related, and had a little time so I thought I'd add to it - over 17 years later. I happened upon an example of this marriage at a Stacks auction in December 2021. Competition wasn't too tough, actually - maybe it flew under the radar, or maybe its appearance was just too off-putting. But I was happy to land it! There were four instances of it in the 2019 JRCS census: a 61, 40, 20, and 15. This G6 - which is not a details coin, in case anyone wondered - will join their ranks at the next census!

    congrats

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    1946Hamm1946Hamm Posts: 768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Out of curiosity what is this one? It is in my type set. Thanks for any info. Gary

    Have a good day, Gary
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    BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 210 ✭✭✭✭

    @1946Hamm Hi Gary. Your coin is an 1833 LM-4.1, which is a Rarity-2 remarriage. The diagnostics for LM-4 that year are bulletproof: on the obverse (1833 Obv 2), star 6 is double-punched prominently, and on the reverse (reverse U), the O in "OF" is doubled, particularly visible at the top.

    So then you get into figuring out which remarriage you have there (LM-4.1, 4.2, or 4.3). This is more subtle. In your coin, the N of UNITED doesn't have any chip in it. Further, the left wingtip lacks a die crack that runs to the rim, and A2 (the first A in AMERICA) doesn't have a crack from the rim down. I say this can be subtle because during the course of the LM-4.1 remarriage's minting, the chip in N forms. So you may observe a chipped N in any of the 3 remarriages. But you cannot observe a chipped N in an LM-4.1 so I feel pretty confident in ID'ing it as that.

    You piqued my interest right away, though, because 1833 obverse 2 is used on some tough pairings: 1833 LM-5 that is the subject of this post, and LM-3.5 which gets a big cud on it. So when I see that doubled 6th star, I perk up. Also, Rev U appears on a couple of toughies (in the 1832 minting) like the 1832 10.x and 11.x remarriages. Here's the chart from the Logan/McCloskey book that shows what a workout reverse U got:

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

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    BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 210 ✭✭✭✭

    OK, I need to turn my positive into a double-negative. Lol. I said, "cannot observe a chipped N in an LM-4.1" but what I should have said was "you cannot observe an UNchipped N in marriages beyond LM-4.1." I need an editor.

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2022 3:46PM

    @Bikergeek said:
    OK, I need to turn my positive into a double-negative. Lol. I said, "cannot observe a chipped N in an LM-4.1" but what I should have said was "you cannot observe an UNchipped N in marriages beyond LM-4.1." I need an editor.

    just in case you didn't know, there is a forum bug (still?) that erases/deletes posts sometimes when editing or adding something the software doesn't like, so if you make a technical post, it is best to ctrl+a and ctrl+c to put a backup copy into memory in case it is needed. unfortunately, it seems when this bug is encountered, the draft is not saved.

    nice post. :)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 210 ✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC appreciate the tip!- I remember seeing one post where the author typed a person's surname. That surname included a string of letters that, if standing alone would constitute a "naughty" word. The forum tossed the whole thing into the bit bucket and the author of the planned (long and technical!) post had to go have a cool-off period. Hah!

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

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    1946Hamm1946Hamm Posts: 768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bikergeek; Thanks for the info. It is much appreciated.

    Have a good day, Gary

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