I would find it interesting to have the Noe stash of NGC coins sent in small batches to PCGS for crossover. Wouldn't the prosecuting attornery have a good time with the crossover results?
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I agree that this article is mostly hype by the author, with more being implied than actually stated. However, this seemed to be a pretty blatant accusation:
<< <i>NGC forbids its graders from selling and buying coins to ensure impartiality, but the prohibition apparently does not extend to the company’s president, Salzberg. In a 2001 deal, Salzberg sold $2 million in coins to Noe and Greenburg, with the state coin fund obligated to pay $1.55 million of the total. >>
While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story!
<< <i> While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story! >>
Doesn't David Hall buy and sell PCGS graded coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i> While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story! >>
Doesn't David Hall buy and sell PCGS graded coins? >>
Beats me. I'm still new to all of this and don't know the rules applied to the TPG owners and presidents. I remember reading that normal employees can't buy and sell coins though.. right? Does anyone know if they can/do B/S/T coins?
Grading is an opinion of a coin's market value. We pay people who know far more about preservation and the market to furnish an opinion on the value of a coin.
It should be obvious to even the most casual observer that when small differences in con- dition can mean big differences in value that there is a potential for conflicts of interest. It should be equally obvious that every coin that leaves a grader with the wrong "grade" that there is significant danger of damaging their reputation and rendering the value of their op- inion to decrease. Certainly the graders are well aware of this and would always be careful to not allow misgraded coins to appear on the market and would be more cautious to not al- low a pattern to develop. It seems very early in this story to be condemning anyone.
NCS has been restoring coins that have been damaged partly as the result of the increased demand for "market acceptable" coins and partly because the increased value of many such coins makes such a venture viable. It does seem odd that so many of the Ohio coins have been through this but this may merely represent the estimation of market value of the princi- ples in this investment. It is very early and there is very little evidence to draw many conclu- sions.
I think NGC specifically states it is arms length. The right thing for Salzberg to do would have been to sell the coins in a public auction. I can't believe no one here is suspicious? Even if only 10% of what was written were fact-its still very bad news.
And did Hall get busted for that years ago also? But didn't he drop the arms length thing (in print)?
$766 per coin? Maybe he used the "Presidential Review" option.
Seriously, this sort of thing doesn't benefit anybody; not the 3rd tier services or the industry.
We'll see how this plays out, but at the very least these guys are guilty of stupidity. People at that level of the game aren't often in the stupid catagory, but it happens...just ask Ken Lay.
I'm betting on indictments coming down.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
<< <i>While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest. >>
The article mentioned "selling" coins - it is entirely possible that they were acquired many years ago and that there was no current "buying and selling" taking place.
This is the ONLY useful post I've seen about the Ohio problem-- At $750+ per coin and 261 coins, this simply suggests that NGC's opinion can be bought for a price. I was going to try to sell NGC stock short, then since it's private, bought some more CU!! The only thing dumber than buying an NGC coin IMHO, would be sending in one to NGC and getting a low grade because your not "connected"--or using their conservation service!!
........documents examined by The Dispatch show that the Maumee coin dealer’s numerous interactions with NGC and its top executives qualify him as the ultimate insider.
before everyone burns RGL at the stake, try to consider that his article may well be based on evidence unknown to the general public.
<< <i>I'm a little out of my league with this question, but I always hear that sometimes a "local" story is "picked up" by the AP and thereafter gets distributed nationally. Does anyone know if this story has made headlines anywhere other than Ohio? What can cause this story to be distributed and discussed nationally? >>
The story got picked up by the Associated Press around the middle of June and stories ran in papers around the country for a day or two giving the basic outline of the story.
NBC nightly news ran a segment on the story about a month ago.
I disagree. It is indeed a wake up call for the industry. >>
Mark my word. People have a short memory. This will blow over soon enough. >>
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There are currently three grand juries looking into various aspects of this case. A year from now I expect this story to still be in the news.
I'm just curious when this whole fiasco comes to a head.........how many end up wearing stripes, how many plea bargain, how many just get fines and a slap on the wrist, and how many walk away scott free?
I agree with the posts by Russ and CTcollector. This situation needs to be fully investigated. As to costing us money, it already has for me-quite a coincidence that they should start taxing coins in this state right at the same time as this fiasco occurred.
<< <i>I agree with the posts by Russ and CTcollector. This situation needs to be fully investigated. As to costing us money, it already has for me-quite a coincidence that they should start taxing coins in this state right at the same time as this fiasco occurred. >>
If you are talking about Ohio it is no coincidence at all.
Noe pushed through the tax exempt status for coin sales in Ohio back in 1989 and the law was often referred to as the "Noe amendment". Since Noe's name is now political poison in Ohio it was easy for legislators to vote to recind the tax exemption.
It is surprising to me that people are shocked that a TPG would have close associations with their biggest customers; they are a business, not a government agency, and they need to be responsive to the people who pay their bills. That being said, those relationships should be left at the door of the grading room.
Based upon the information in the article, there doesn't appear to be any real evidence to indicate that Noe/Rare Coin Alliance/Numismatic Professionals were able to exert undo influence on graders - the story relies to heavily on innuendo.
Also, many on the board have expressed surprise at a reported average cost of around $700/coin to have items graded and conserved. NCS charges 2.5% plus grading fees for their services regardless of the outcome. On a submission of the size mentioned in the article, I think the math works.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
The article mentioned "selling" coins - it is entirely possible that they were acquired many years ago and that there was no current "buying and selling" taking place.
Other possibilities include a sale/repurchase arrangement, which is essentially a loan in which the title of the coin passes to the lender and then, upon repayment of the loan, back to the borrower. Another possibility is that Salzberg lent money to Noe by making purchases on his behalf. In that scenario, the coins would later be sold by Salzberg to Noe, but there would probably be no conflict of interest.
Like Regulated said, the article is mostly innuendo. Let's wait for more facts.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Brandt said it could be difficult to sell the cache of Noe coins sight unseen because of perceptions that they could be overgraded — and overpriced — in light of the Noe-NGC relationship.
But, he said, he has no evidence that coins were consciously overgraded.
Is Mr.Brandt fueling the public perception the coins might have been overgraded, and is that good for the fund? >>
Now where would the public get the idea that NGC overgrades it's coins?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Only one 2003 transaction resulted in nearly $200k in conservation fees?!? Wow - I can imagine that they must have spent purt near a million bucks over the years of the Fund. All for a little dip and strip that most dealers can do themselves .... or hire someone to do a hell of a lot cheaper than that. Why would they send all that money to NCS?
Hmmmm. >>
You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. I would check the backs of all those who were involved and see who has been scratched the most!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Wow, 25 million? Whats that, a tenth of one percent of the entire coin market? I promise, I'm not on your case, its just not a major factor for the coin market. Its only a major factor for the few parties involved >>
BuffQuarter, it's not just the amount of $ involved that concerns some hobbyists - it's also about the implications of many of the allegations, which, if true (and I'd like to think they aren't), make for a much larger/widespread problem. >>
Does this mean we could finally get an answer to what a certified MS65 coin IS?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
M.Salzberg collected coins way back when... 30 years ago.... and I would guess still does and did. If he buys via other dealers or auction, and sells the same way (in the original NGC or PCGS holder), where is the conflict of interest? Sort of like David Hall Rare Coins which does not submit coins to PCGS. I believe others are sweating the results of the upcoming "disclosure". Good. Doubt if NGC as a company will be affected.
<< <i>It is naive to view this story as anything but a negative for the field.
Right or wrong it taints whole concept of independent grading. Just the open discussion of upgrades, 'conservation' and crossovers has likely surprised some with less knowledge of the field.
Some who read article and who hold NGC slabs are likely feeling a little less secure about their holdings. Less sucure in accuracy of grade...........insecure that even if grade is correct that a proven taint on NGC will taint ALL NGC slabbed coins.
Some will attempt crossovers and while many/most will be successful those who aren't will feel betrayed. Even if successful they won't feel quite as comfortable the next time they go to buy any coin. Errosion of the field will start at the bottom not at the top.
I know all of the purists will say "Buy the coin not the slab" but the simple fact is that a significant % of retail customers depend on the slab for accurate grading! Just look at 'slabbed vs. nonslabbed' sales and prices on Ebay.
Anything that hurts the perception of an independent and accurate third party grading system hurts the field. You can't have it both ways. You can't enjoy the run up in prices that has occured in part because of TPG then snear to masses....."Buy the coin not the slab". If confidence in the 'slab' falls so will interest in the field. >>
Yes, it would be a good time for all those collectors who have been sitting on their hands because they have had some hunch, for some time now, that their coins just might be overgraded!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I would find it interesting to have the Noe stash of NGC coins sent in small batches to PCGS for crossover. Wouldn't the prosecuting attornery have a good time with the crossover results? >>
How so?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I agree that this article is mostly hype by the author, with more being implied than actually stated. However, this seemed to be a pretty blatant accusation:
<< <i> Salzberg sold $2 million in coins to Noe and Greenburg, with the state coin fund obligated to pay $1.55 million of the total. >>
While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest. >>
They must of been certified coins, correct? Or were they raw coins, sent to the cleaners, NCS?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i> While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story! >>
Doesn't David Hall buy and sell PCGS graded coins? >>
Yes, but he doesn't submit them.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Grading is an opinion of a coin's market value. We pay people who know far more about preservation and the market to furnish an opinion on the value of a coin.
It should be obvious to even the most casual observer that when small differences in con- dition can mean big differences in value that there is a potential for conflicts of interest. It should be equally obvious that every coin that leaves a grader with the wrong "grade" that there is significant danger of damaging their reputation and rendering the value of their op- inion to decrease. Certainly the graders are well aware of this and would always be careful to not allow misgraded coins to appear on the market and would be more cautious to not al- low a pattern to develop. It seems very early in this story to be condemning anyone.
NCS has been restoring coins that have been damaged partly as the result of the increased demand for "market acceptable" coins and partly because the increased value of many such coins makes such a venture viable. It does seem odd that so many of the Ohio coins have been through this but this may merely represent the estimation of market value of the princi- ples in this investment. It is very early and there is very little evidence to draw many conclu- sions. >>
But you would think or at least hope that 3 professional graders and sometimes a finalizer who are paid 100's of thousands dollars would get it right every time they grade a coin. Yes, it's coming to a screeching halt!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>This is the ONLY useful post I've seen about the Ohio problem-- At $750+ per coin and 261 coins, this simply suggests that NGC's opinion can be bought for a price. I was going to try to sell NGC stock short, then since it's private, bought some more CU!! The only thing dumber than buying an NGC coin IMHO, would be sending in one to NGC and getting a low grade because your not "connected"--or using their conservation service!! >>
Is it possible that they have it written in a clause somewhere that NCS can charge up to a certain percentage per value of the coin?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I'm just curious when this whole fiasco comes to a head.........how many end up wearing stripes, how many plea bargain, how many just get fines and a slap on the wrist, and how many walk away scott free? >>
It's "scotch", not Scott! Scott works for NCS!
Leo (just kidding)
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
It is surprising to me that people are shocked that a TPG would have close associations with their biggest customers; they are a business, not a government agency, and they need to be responsive to the people who pay their bills. That being said, those relationships should be left at the door of the grading room.
Based upon the information in the article, there doesn't appear to be any real evidence to indicate that Noe/Rare Coin Alliance/Numismatic Professionals were able to exert undo influence on graders - the story relies to heavily on innuendo.
Also, many on the board have expressed surprise at a reported average cost of around $700/coin to have items graded and conserved. NCS charges 2.5% plus grading fees for their services regardless of the outcome. On a submission of the size mentioned in the article, I think the math works. >>
If evidence is leaked or posted, it just may get thrown out of court.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Comments
For this to work an appraiser has to inflate the value. Maybe Ohio just took Noe and his partner’s guesstamation of the value.
Oh, I forgot, Noe has done no wrong, the trial isn't over.
<< <i>Tempest in a teapot!!!
I disagree. It is indeed a wake up call for the industry. >>
Mark my word. People have a short memory. This will blow over soon enough.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
However, this seemed to be a pretty blatant accusation:
<< <i>NGC forbids its graders from selling and buying coins to ensure impartiality, but the prohibition apparently does not extend to the company’s president, Salzberg. In a 2001 deal, Salzberg sold $2 million in coins to Noe and Greenburg, with the state coin fund obligated to pay $1.55 million of the total. >>
While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story!
<< <i>
<< <i>Tempest in a teapot!!!
I disagree. It is indeed a wake up call for the industry. >>
Mark my word. People have a short memory. This will blow over soon enough. >>
They may have even shorter wallets when they begin trying to sell optimistically graded coins into a declining and attentive market.
heheh
<< <i>
While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story! >>
Doesn't David Hall buy and sell PCGS graded coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i>
<< <i>
While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story! >>
Doesn't David Hall buy and sell PCGS graded coins? >>
Beats me. I'm still new to all of this and don't know the rules applied to the TPG owners and presidents. I remember reading that normal employees can't buy and sell coins though.. right? Does anyone know if they can/do B/S/T coins?
preservation and the market to furnish an opinion on the value of a coin.
It should be obvious to even the most casual observer that when small differences in con-
dition can mean big differences in value that there is a potential for conflicts of interest. It
should be equally obvious that every coin that leaves a grader with the wrong "grade" that
there is significant danger of damaging their reputation and rendering the value of their op-
inion to decrease. Certainly the graders are well aware of this and would always be careful
to not allow misgraded coins to appear on the market and would be more cautious to not al-
low a pattern to develop. It seems very early in this story to be condemning anyone.
NCS has been restoring coins that have been damaged partly as the result of the increased
demand for "market acceptable" coins and partly because the increased value of many such
coins makes such a venture viable. It does seem odd that so many of the Ohio coins have
been through this but this may merely represent the estimation of market value of the princi-
ples in this investment. It is very early and there is very little evidence to draw many conclu-
sions.
And did Hall get busted for that years ago also? But didn't he drop the arms length thing (in print)?
What a business!
Seriously, this sort of thing doesn't benefit anybody; not the 3rd tier services or the industry.
We'll see how this plays out, but at the very least these guys are guilty of stupidity. People at that level of the game aren't often in the stupid catagory, but it happens...just ask Ken Lay.
I'm betting on indictments coming down.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
<< <i>While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest. >>
The article mentioned "selling" coins - it is entirely possible that they were acquired many years ago and that there was no current "buying and selling" taking place.
What are my NGC coins going to be worth in the future?
The coin's values are unchanged. The holders may be worth less. The good news is that can be fixed with a hammer.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
before everyone burns RGL at the stake, try to consider that his article may well be based on evidence unknown to the general public.
<< <i>I'm a little out of my league with this question, but I always hear that sometimes a "local" story is "picked up" by the AP and thereafter gets distributed nationally. Does anyone know if this story has made headlines anywhere other than Ohio? What can cause this story to be distributed and discussed nationally? >>
The story got picked up by the Associated Press around the middle
of June and stories ran in papers around the country for a day or
two giving the basic outline of the story.
NBC nightly news ran a segment on the story about a month ago.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>Tempest in a teapot!!!
I disagree. It is indeed a wake up call for the industry. >>
Mark my word. People have a short memory. This will blow over soon enough. >>
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There are currently three grand
juries looking into various aspects of this case. A year from
now I expect this story to still be in the news.
<< <i>The coin's values are unchanged. The holders may be worth less. The good news is that can be fixed with a hammer. >>
Russ, NCNE
one, one, none and all the rest.
<< <i>I agree with the posts by Russ and CTcollector. This situation needs to be fully investigated. As to costing us money, it already has for me-quite a coincidence that they should start taxing coins in this state right at the same time as this fiasco occurred. >>
If you are talking about Ohio it is no coincidence at all.
Noe pushed through the tax exempt status for coin sales in Ohio
back in 1989 and the law was often referred to as
the "Noe amendment". Since Noe's name is now political poison
in Ohio it was easy for legislators to vote to recind the tax
exemption.
<< <i>So just for the sake of argument, that if NGC did indeed overgrade coins are they not liable through their gauantee to buy them back? >>
Yes but I believe that they are also the arbiter of any disputes about whether or not they overgraded; kind of like the prisoners guarding the jail.
<< <i>Hey Randy,
why don't you strongly consider trying to stick your head up your butt? Your journalism is weak and your personal Constitution is pathetic.
Is your alternate ID, Michigan?
Tom Pilitowski
Just another whine from a dealer who doesn't like to see these kinds of stories that make the coin
business look bad.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey Randy,
why don't you strongly consider trying to stick your head up your butt? Your journalism is weak and your personal Constitution is pathetic.
Is your alternate ID, Michigan?
Tom Pilitowski
Just another whine from a dealer who doesn't like to see these kinds of stories that make the coin
business look bad. >>
Wrong and comments from you have zero credibility so bite me.
Are you male or female by the way? Little of both maybe?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey Randy,
why don't you strongly consider trying to stick your head up your butt? Your journalism is weak and your personal Constitution is pathetic.
Is your alternate ID, Michigan?
Tom Pilitowski
Just another whine from a dealer who doesn't like to see these kinds of stories that make the coin
business look bad. >>
Wrong and comments from you have zero credibility so bite me.
Are you male or female by the way? Little of both maybe? >>
I know a little baby down the street...
Whose got the cutest way with a boogie beat...
He's got a little rattle he shakes around....
I don't know where that rhythm he ever found....
Oh he's a Rockaboogie Baby, Rockaboogie baby of mine....
He's a boogie fella natural born......
Who never ever likes lullabyes that are worn....
He always uses Boogie to go to sleep....
Shakes his little rattle instead of counting sheep.....
Oh he's a Rockaboogie Baby, Rockaboogie baby of mine....
Papa said to momma, what ever did we do?.....
To make the Baby boogie instead of goo goo goo.....
Momma said to poppa its funny but its true....
The baby rock's a boogie like we used to do.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
It is surprising to me that people are shocked that a TPG would have close associations with their biggest customers; they are a business, not a government agency, and they need to be responsive to the people who pay their bills. That being said, those relationships should be left at the door of the grading room.
Based upon the information in the article, there doesn't appear to be any real evidence to indicate that Noe/Rare Coin Alliance/Numismatic Professionals were able to exert undo influence on graders - the story relies to heavily on innuendo.
Also, many on the board have expressed surprise at a reported average cost of around $700/coin to have items graded and conserved. NCS charges 2.5% plus grading fees for their services regardless of the outcome. On a submission of the size mentioned in the article, I think the math works.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Other possibilities include a sale/repurchase arrangement, which is essentially a loan in which the title of the coin passes to the lender and then, upon repayment of the loan, back to the borrower. Another possibility is that Salzberg lent money to Noe by making purchases on his behalf. In that scenario, the coins would later be sold by Salzberg to Noe, but there would probably be no conflict of interest.
Like Regulated said, the article is mostly innuendo. Let's wait for more facts.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The truth hurts! Hey, in the end these guys are going to cost ALL of us money! >>
Higher submission fees? Oh no!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Brandt said it could be difficult to sell the cache of Noe coins sight unseen because of perceptions that they could be overgraded — and overpriced — in light of the Noe-NGC relationship.
But, he said, he has no evidence that coins were consciously overgraded.
Is Mr.Brandt fueling the public perception the coins might have been overgraded, and is that good for the fund? >>
Now where would the public get the idea that NGC overgrades it's coins?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Only one 2003 transaction resulted in nearly $200k in conservation fees?!? Wow - I can imagine that they must have spent purt near a million bucks over the years of the Fund. All for a little dip and strip that most dealers can do themselves .... or hire someone to do a hell of a lot cheaper than that. Why would they send all that money to NCS?
Hmmmm. >>
You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. I would check the backs of all those who were involved and see who has been scratched the most!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i> "I’m going to take a long, hard look at these boys . . . (and) turn their shorts inside out. >>
interesting.................... >>
Sounds like these guys are going to get their oil checked!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, 25 million? Whats that, a tenth of one percent of the entire coin market? I promise, I'm not on your case, its just not a major factor for the coin market. Its only a major factor for the few parties involved >>
BuffQuarter, it's not just the amount of $ involved that concerns some hobbyists - it's also about the implications of many of the allegations, which, if true (and I'd like to think they aren't), make for a much larger/widespread problem. >>
Does this mean we could finally get an answer to what a certified MS65 coin IS?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>It is naive to view this story as anything but a negative for the field.
Right or wrong it taints whole concept of independent grading. Just the open discussion of upgrades, 'conservation' and crossovers has likely surprised some with less knowledge of the field.
Some who read article and who hold NGC slabs are likely feeling a little less secure about their holdings.
Less sucure in accuracy of grade...........insecure that even if grade is correct that a proven taint on NGC will taint ALL NGC slabbed coins.
Some will attempt crossovers and while many/most will be successful those who aren't will feel betrayed. Even if successful they won't feel quite as comfortable the next time they go to buy any coin.
Errosion of the field will start at the bottom not at the top.
I know all of the purists will say "Buy the coin not the slab" but the simple fact is that a significant % of retail customers depend on the slab for accurate grading! Just look at 'slabbed vs. nonslabbed' sales and prices on Ebay.
Anything that hurts the perception of an independent and accurate third party grading system hurts the field. You can't have it both ways. You can't enjoy the run up in prices that has occured in part because of TPG then snear to masses....."Buy the coin not the slab". If confidence in the 'slab' falls so will interest in the field. >>
Yes, it would be a good time for all those collectors who have been sitting on their hands because they have had some hunch, for some time now, that their coins just might be overgraded!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I would find it interesting to have the Noe stash of NGC coins sent in small batches to PCGS for crossover. Wouldn't the prosecuting attornery have a good time with the crossover results?
How so?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I agree that this article is mostly hype by the author, with more being implied than actually stated.
However, this seemed to be a pretty blatant accusation:
<< <i> Salzberg sold $2 million in coins to Noe and Greenburg, with the state coin fund obligated to pay $1.55 million of the total. >>
While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest. >>
They must of been certified coins, correct? Or were they raw coins, sent to the cleaners, NCS?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Tempest in a teapot!!!
I disagree. It is indeed a wake up call for the industry. >>
Mark my word. People have a short memory. This will blow over soon enough. >>
People who have blown alot of money don't have short memories.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
While NGC may or may not be "in" on this, if Salzberg is really privately buying and selling valuable coins while holding his current title, I can definitely see a conflict of interest.
The author says "the prohibition apparently dose not extend to the companies president..." Well, do some research and find out whether or not it does, we could all care less what is "apparently" going on! I want to know what really is going on, so get back out there and don't come back until you have some facts for your story! >>
Doesn't David Hall buy and sell PCGS graded coins? >>
Yes, but he doesn't submit them.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Grading is an opinion of a coin's market value. We pay people who know far more about
preservation and the market to furnish an opinion on the value of a coin.
It should be obvious to even the most casual observer that when small differences in con-
dition can mean big differences in value that there is a potential for conflicts of interest. It
should be equally obvious that every coin that leaves a grader with the wrong "grade" that
there is significant danger of damaging their reputation and rendering the value of their op-
inion to decrease. Certainly the graders are well aware of this and would always be careful
to not allow misgraded coins to appear on the market and would be more cautious to not al-
low a pattern to develop. It seems very early in this story to be condemning anyone.
NCS has been restoring coins that have been damaged partly as the result of the increased
demand for "market acceptable" coins and partly because the increased value of many such
coins makes such a venture viable. It does seem odd that so many of the Ohio coins have
been through this but this may merely represent the estimation of market value of the princi-
ples in this investment. It is very early and there is very little evidence to draw many conclu-
sions. >>
But you would think or at least hope that 3 professional graders and sometimes a finalizer who are paid 100's of thousands dollars would get it right every time they grade a coin. Yes, it's coming to a screeching halt!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>This is the ONLY useful post I've seen about the Ohio problem-- At $750+ per coin and 261 coins, this simply suggests that NGC's opinion can be bought for a price. I was going to try to sell NGC stock short, then since it's private, bought some more CU!! The only thing dumber than buying an NGC coin IMHO, would be sending in one to NGC and getting a low grade because your not "connected"--or using their conservation service!!
Is it possible that they have it written in a clause somewhere that NCS can charge up to a certain percentage per value of the coin?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>What are my NGC coins going to be worth in the future?
The coin's values are unchanged. The holders may be worth less. The good news is that can be fixed with a hammer. >>
Don
Did you say jack hammer?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I'm just curious when this whole fiasco comes to a head.........how many end up wearing stripes, how many plea bargain, how many just get fines and a slap on the wrist, and how many walk away scott free? >>
It's "scotch", not Scott! Scott works for NCS!
Leo (just kidding)
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Interesting thread.
It is surprising to me that people are shocked that a TPG would have close associations with their biggest customers; they are a business, not a government agency, and they need to be responsive to the people who pay their bills. That being said, those relationships should be left at the door of the grading room.
Based upon the information in the article, there doesn't appear to be any real evidence to indicate that Noe/Rare Coin Alliance/Numismatic Professionals were able to exert undo influence on graders - the story relies to heavily on innuendo.
Also, many on the board have expressed surprise at a reported average cost of around $700/coin to have items graded and conserved. NCS charges 2.5% plus grading fees for their services regardless of the outcome. On a submission of the size mentioned in the article, I think the math works. >>
If evidence is leaked or posted, it just may get thrown out of court.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection