MS 67 liberty nickels--What does it take?
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
I have been collecting this series since I was 13. Now, at 64 I have seen in hand 9 of the current 67's graded at PCGS(there are 15 1883 NC and 20 in the other dates).
I own 6 NGC 67's and the one 68. I have viewed some 15 additional 67's from this service.
But I still have some difficulty in understanding the TPG's criteria for a MS 67 grade.
The ANA grading guide indicates "virtually flawless, but with very minor imperfections" and this is the same description for all MS 67 denominations.
BUT, many of the presently graded 67's, from both services, have hits on the face(usually small), hits around the V on the reverse, weak corn, some weak stars, and even some without booming luster or wow toning.
I'd like to hear, and then compile a consensus, as to what Lib nickel collectors think it would take for a 67 grade. And then see if we can agree that the TPG's are seriously off on their "Uniform Grading" of these very high end coins.
I own 6 NGC 67's and the one 68. I have viewed some 15 additional 67's from this service.
But I still have some difficulty in understanding the TPG's criteria for a MS 67 grade.
The ANA grading guide indicates "virtually flawless, but with very minor imperfections" and this is the same description for all MS 67 denominations.
BUT, many of the presently graded 67's, from both services, have hits on the face(usually small), hits around the V on the reverse, weak corn, some weak stars, and even some without booming luster or wow toning.
I'd like to hear, and then compile a consensus, as to what Lib nickel collectors think it would take for a 67 grade. And then see if we can agree that the TPG's are seriously off on their "Uniform Grading" of these very high end coins.
TahoeDale
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I'm a 'face snob' or more accurately a "cheek snob". If I were paying MS67 money the entire face/cheek/jaw had better be absolutely clean from all but the most 'minute-minute' ticks, preferably NONE. I could really only tolerate ticks in the hair area, and the wreath on the rev. The "V" and surrounding fields (obv. & rev.) should also be whisker clean, IMO.
The only forgiveness for some ultra-light ticks in the central devices should be screaming, original lustre and skin or an electric toning pattern......headlights need not apply, NCS. If it had NCS problems, it's not a 67 to begin with.
Oh yeah, strike should be at least 90-95% IMO.
All of the above pretty much syncs with PCGSs criteria and actual grades for Swiss 10 rappens which are very similar in design motif, although the Swiss coins are higher relief than the rather basal Liberty.
I am not a Lib Nickel collector, but I have been following this series over the past six months or so. I can only project what I know about Lincolns onto this series. I would agree with others here in that the main design elements need to be fully struck. There must be no noticeable hits. Those two things are the biggies for me when looking at Lincolns. What constitutes full strike can be debated. For instance, with Lincolns, I feel that the "O" of "ONE" on the reverse has to be full and sharp. With Liberty Nickels, I would imagine that clean fields and portrait should be a minimum. I'd like to hear what others say as I may jump into this series.
Jack
Many, if not most, are dull and/or less than sharply struck and/or have planchet problems. They also suffer from a design which is unappealing/unattractive to many.
The question to be asked is - do you take this into account and grade them a bit more liberally than you do other coin types which are more easily found without these strikes against them? In other words, do you grade them to a different standard?
My answer/preference would be a resounding "no". If, for instance, the finest business strike Liberty Nickel in existence is deserving of nothing more than an MS66 grade, so be it.
Edited to add: Dale - PM sent.
1. This is a tough series to get 67 grades in, as the nickel is a difficult metal to strike fully. And being nickel, the luster needed for high grade is almost always lacking.
2. No hits in prime focal areas(that can be seen without magnification). So if any on the face, cheek, jaw, and around or on the V, maximum grade is 66.
3. There can be weak stars and corn, but probably this coin will have to have booming luster and perfect in all other attributes.
4. There is no doubt that the lib nickel was spent every day, and probably not saved/put away to any great degree.
5. All these factors lead to the final conclusion: there are only a handful of correctly graded lib nickels in MS 67, there will be very few more graded, and the rarity will remain. That's wonderful for the owners of the the present 67's, but forget about many new ones.
6. One further note: I indicated in the initial post that I had viewed over 25 67's slabbed by NGC and PCGS. I can advise that only 3 or 4 meet the strict requirements listed here.
Interestingly, even some of the pattern proof nickels in grades PR65 and higher display flat left corn or very softly struck left corn. For example, J-1671 from 1881 struck in nickel I have seen with fully struck left corn to entirely flat left corn - each grading PR65 in either NGC or PCGS. Yet, J-1671 is a High R6 rarity (perhaps 14-20 coins struck). So, even a Liberty Nickel proof with fewer than 20 strikings can exhibit weak reverse left corn on some of the strikings. So, granted, a fully struck Mint State Liberty Nickel in many dates throughout the series may be a very special coin fully struck and I, personally, like to see such a strike required on most MS67 specimens (again, although actually finding them that way being another matter entirely).
Wondercoin
<< <i> For me, I have a problem with an MS67 slabbed Liberty Nickel which does not exhibit fully struck obverse stars and fully struck reverse left corn. And, yes, many fail to exhibit these qualities to be sure. >>
Mitch, WHY do you feel that way, especially since you are aware that even some Proof strikings lack the strike you seek/demand?
Do you feel the same about strike on other issues as well, with respect to the MS67 grade? For example, where would you stand on an amazingly well preserved Seated Quarter or Half dollar with no marks, great luster and eye-appeal, etc., but with some weak stars (or softness of strike on Ms. Liberty's head)?
I am not trying to be argumentative - not yet, at least
I guess I, personally, place strike as probably the most important component of the grade of an MS Liberty Nickel. How important is strike to you as a component to the grade of a Liberty Nickel and, in particular, the reverse left corn? Would you be comfortable with an MS67 grade assigned to a coin with weak stars and flat corn? I would be interested in learning your thinking as well on this series. Perhaps I am placing too much weight on strike?
Wondercoin
Strike (as long as it isn't really weak/mushy) is not nearly as important to me as cleanliness and quality of surfaces, luster, eye appeal, etc. But, that is strictly a personal thing, and I realize that others have their own preferences which are just as legitimate as my own.
Greg
I expect that PCGS will never put a 68 number on a MS Lib nickel. And there is no shield nickel graded above 67(in MS). One 3CN.
But if they did, it would probably need the luster of a Morgan dollar, or a rainbow commem.
Many silver coins grade 68 with slight hits, and incomplete tho nice strikes. Having graded several Barber halves and quarters, as well as Seated coinage in this lofty grade, they have some familarity with what is needed.
The one MS 68 lib nickel graded by NGC is a Moose, with luster galore, full strike, and virtually without imperfections. But a nickel cannot look as nice as a silver coin, at least in MS.
The proofs do grade 68 in both the shield and liberty series. But special dies and additional pressure during striking gets the job done.
So what would it take? Probably a mis-designated proof.
I have never seen a brilliant or lustrous business strike V-nickel. I have bought a couple thinking they were but the luster is very mild and more like a dull sheen.
I have several MS67 certified Jefferson nickels that are not MS67 material IMO. If you're are making a destinction between grades, there must be a strict set of criteras that a coin must meet to attain a lofty grade.
But on the other hand, no matter what series, these coins are not available for everyone! A fully struck coin, especially for nickels, at least I think I can say this about the Jefferson nickels, they're not out there in a abundance to be collected. So the question remains, where do they fit into the pops and their rarity status.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Is this thread what is known as "SSP"?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No, but I can see why you may be suspicious. It came about because of the less than high quality 67's I hace seen recently, graded by both PCGS and NGC. And the inability to get several NGC 67's that are as nice or nicer crossed.
I have viewed 2 recently- 1 from each service- that have weak stars and left corn, noticeable hits on focal points, and the only real saving grace is abundant luster.
The real well struck, and virtually minor imperfections that do not come with big luster do not seem to qualify these days. And I was inquiring as to others views on the importance of each of the factors involved.
But a consensus would seem to require that the 67's have it all, if graded by our members. Maybe I need to just stick with the services.
I'd say the 67 grade has more to do with who the submitter was or the timing of it than the actual coin. You could probably line up the best 25 MS66's out there against the 25 MS66's and I'd bet the best graders would not single them out consistently at all. What would really need to happen is to send the 25 specimens of each grade and have PCGS resort them out. Then what came out as a 67 would be most worthy of the grade. But because they were likely made as a single coin in a larger submission, there were biases in grading it.
Because this is a REG set thing I too would expect a nicely struck corn & stars on my MS67. Imo an MS67 shouldn't have any facial or neck grazes. They can be elsewhere, but not there. Like anything else though there are exceptions. Show me luster and eye appeal to die for and no marks anywhere on the coin at all, but for one light neck or cheek graze, and I could give that a MS 67.
But I also concur with Mark that on seated, bust, and barber coins. I'm more than happy with amazing surfaces, luster and eye appeal to gather a MS 67 grade, even if the strike is only 85-95%. I don't care if an 1849 half has 5 weaker stars and a slight softness on the eagle's lower leg, it could still grade MS67 on luster, eye appeal, surfaces, and originality. Heck, if one even exists in MS66 it is a treasure. REG set fever has not affected these series as much and the price jump from one grade to the next tends to be on a more orderly of 2X per grade.
roadrunner
<< <i>Okay, we have a consensus.
3. There can be weak stars and corn, but probably this coin will have to have booming luster and perfect in all other attributes.
>>
...from being "weak" to being "nice strike but not neccessarily full through the stars and corn".
Having said that, I'm also having difficulty getting in tune, not only with TPG's 67 criteria (though I recall seeing only 4-5), but with the 66 grade as well. Seems PCGS slacked off for a while and let some marginal coins in 66 holders, and blurred the 65/66 line. And this is one series where I believe that there is a (too) wide gap between NGC and PCGS standards for a 66 MS Lib Nickel. Combine all that with the fact the price multiples going to the 66 grade, and to the 67 grade, have dramatically increased over the past few years, I've shied away from buying lately.
For MS67
I am looking first for superb eye appeal with booming luster. Attractive light toning would also be welcomed.
I would like the coin to have fully struck star and hair details. I might allow for some weakness on the reverse left corn as long as all of my other criteria is met.
I might allow for a few (1 or 2) very light contact marks not on focal areas that I would really have to hunt for to locate.
Describe by date and service all MS 67 lib nickels you have seen and/or owned that meet your requirements as indicated here.
If you wish, include those you have owned that are graded MS 67 but not pq- ie, do not fully meet these requirements.
I will start.
1885 PCGS
1889 NGC
Edit: I have viewed Carnton's 1885 in PCGS 67, and it is a sister to mine's. It is definitely pq. Also, Baxi's 1901 in 67. Also pq.
The other 67's I own or have owned, including 4 PCGS and 7 NGC, while nice, and better than all the 66's of the same date that I have viewed, are lacking in some detail. Usually a few weak stars, and non-full corn.
In fact, my 1895 and 96 in 66 are as nice as some of the 67's.
Hi Dale,
1885 PCGS met requirements
1911 PCGS met requirements
Source of these coins, Carnton Collection.
1904 NGC67 NO
1883NC PCGS67 YES, it was in Heritage Baltimore, July '03