Can Dealer/ Auction Descriptions Be Trusted?

wmerlin

Anyone responding to this should get the most recent SMQ by PSE and compare it to the prior volumes.

What stands out is the consistent increase in prices of Graded stamps.

I am not advocating that everyone go crazy buying graded stamps. However, the price trend is consistent through auctions. The question is why is there a recent trend in Auction prices reflecting increase prices of Graded vs. not graded stamps.

One answer (the one I think is right) may be that Graded stamps offer a critical third party opinion regarding the condition of a stamp. Auction houses and dealers have an interest in selling a stamp for as much as possible--- look at Purcer's Web advertising for reason's why auction houses should not be trusted.

So, why should an Auction house indicate that a stamp has a questionable crease, etc. (e.g., reperfs not mentioned and limiting who can provide an expertization) if it is well centered? Have any of you received mis-stated stamps even from the top tier auction houses? I have. Why should we put up with buying "damaged" goods thinking our money went to buy quality stamps?

This problem of wrongly described stamps will be resolved if auction houses and dealers have the stamps they offer graded by independent third parties, IMO.

Thoughts?

Chip Merlin

rolew1946

I am not sure auction houses are guite as bad as dealers but you do have to admit that their life depends on selling stamps. When I first ran across the grading system PSE put into place, I knew it could only do good things for stamp collecting. Scott must have also thought it could only do good for stamp collecting because they have now published expanded grading guidelines. My personal guidelines are if the stamp is valued over $100, I want a certificate. If the condition is VF or better, I want grading. Sweet and simple, in 10 years, new collectors will walk into a stamp dealer and pay for the true quality of stamp they are receiving. Just like coins. If there is anyone out there that is not in favor of grading, maybe its because they are making to much money selling a GOOD as an XF. Foregive me for being so opinionated but that is the way I am.

wmerlin

I apologize if I sounded like I ranted. But, I just got back 20 stamps for grading at a min of 85. 11 had significant problems such as "reperf, creases, thins, filled in holes, etc." I bought all of these "well centered, XF+. Gem, etc," from dealers/auction houses I am certain everyone else deals with.

I do not think we can just take for granted what they sell us b/c of what we are learning and PF is not critical enough to be a legitimate safeguard except for authenticity---- they do not mention the alterations which are going on by people to make stamps "better" than what they are.

Dealers and Auction Houses should start standing by their descriptions with Grading or warn that a significant portion of what they sell is not accurate by their analysis or subject to a more critical analysis which shows they are "puffing" their goods.

Chip

rolew1946

I don't think you ranted. I have a very close friend who buys with big dollars and he bought a stamp from a prominant dealer, sent it in to PSE and his words were "I will never do business with that person again and if you are wise you won't either." This is a very reputable (supposedly) dealer who's name you see very often. I won't actually say the name myself but it does serve as a warning to get a guarantee on purchasing or don't buy.

dougwtx

I am kind of neutral on grading certificates; but I do see how it can hurt the hobby. I do prefer authentication certs on more valuable stamps. Just as in certified coins and currency, people will often buy the plastic and not the coin or note. I see this can happen in stamps. When you throw out the plastic or cert, you usually can't sell for near if it did. A beginner may overpay for a graded/certified specimen. Also, it has been found in graded currency where a note that was sold as AU from a major auction all of sudden shows up in plastic as 63 or 64. The note might have been doctored and all grading companies will make mistakes every once in a while. Its easier to track currency as they have unique serial numbers, but I'm sure this happens in coins as well and may start into stamps.

Auction houses should stand behind their stamps as fault-free unless mentioned. Grading is usually an opinion, so I can see how that cannot be guaranteed.

I'll get off my soapbox for now. Most important advice is buy the stamp, not the plastic or, buy the book before the stamp.

rolew1946

Good point about buying the plastic. In some recent auctions that featured only PSE graded stamps, it was apparent that some people were buying the graded certificate. Some of the stamps went for some very high prices. I won't be bidding on anything like that anytime soon but if I were to bid I would want to go and see the stamp for myself and not rely on just a third party opinion.

wmerlin

Rolew,

Going to see the stamp at an auction may be an option if you live in New York or close to where the Auction will be held, but most of us do not have the luxury. It also adds quite a bit to the price if you add up your airfare and other travel expenses.

dougwtx and Rolew,

"Buying the Certificate" rather than buying the stamp--- what do you mean? We all buy the stamps--- mainly for our collections. Authenticity is very important. However, the condition is equally important. All you have to do is look at the multiple value differences b/w stamps without flaws and those with flaws to wonder, 'Is the seller trying to sell me a very nice looking stamp that has been expertly altered?' b/c there is such an economic incentive. I want very nice stamps if I am paying dear for them--- not altered stamps that I should be paying much less for.

And, are most of us really good enough to spot the "expert" touch ups that go on and allegedly are not being caught and thus not noted in the descriptions dealers/auctioneers are making in their catalogs? I have a hard enough time figuring out the problems PSE finds and indicate exists with my stamps, much less finding them on my own. I doubt I am in the same boat.

Rolew, you note that a friend of yours paid good money to a dealer for a stamp which is obviously misdescribed. The critical question is, 'why should we put up with dealers or auction houses, whom are "experts", when they give us misdescribed stamps?' What is wrong with saying that ........ Dealer/Auction House said, "Gem, perfectly centered" and it comes back with a PSE 50 Grade saying, "regummed and reperf?"

We should start a message thread--- "Dealers with the most misdescribed stamps." We list the dealer/house and their description--- then we list all the faults PSE finds. For the honest guys, we could do the same so they get the credit they deserve. Maybe somebody in the leadership of the ASDA will start taking notice and start doing something about this problem. Honest dealers and auctions houses get hurt when others in the trade allow misdescriptions to go on.

My advise from the school of hard knocks and lost bucks- get the dealer or auction house to allow the purchase subject to a critical expertization. I have to remember to follow this rule myself!

I have no affiliation with PSE. But, when I get a PF cert following an auction and then get a Graded PSE Cert., the critical test and condition of the stamp's condition comes from the Graded PSE Cert , not PF imo.

rolew1946

wmerlin. I guess we could start threads. But to be effective, the sellers description and the expertizing would have to match what is being said in the thread.

When I talk about seeing the stamp, I should have used third person. I obviously would have a difficult time getting to any of the auction houses from where I live in Oregon. But you have people out there spending $80,000 to $500,000 for stamps (not me for sure) and the extra cost to go physically see the stamp is minimal.

Believe it or not, I am a big supporter of PSE and believe that they do a very fine job. Will I trust them to tell me that a stamp is VF or XF, you bet. On a stamp graded higher than that, the buyer has to be comfortable with the way it will look in their collection. Scans and pictures are ok but don't always tell the whole story about appearance. I very much agree with you that if someone buys a high dollar stamp it should subject to expert grading (if not already provided.)

dougwtx

wmerlin,

My comment about buying the cert and not the stamp was mainly towards new collectors. IMO, they are more apt to "overspend" on a specimen that comes with a cert when it really should have no bearing on value; unless it's a grading cert. Grading certs I believe can add value, but one person's XF may not be another person's. There are overgraded coins in major TPGs all over; just as there are undergraded ones. I'm sure if third party stamp grading increases, then there will be overgraded and undergraded material popping up. I believe auth. certs are good at disclosing faults that may be difficult to determine such as some repairs, regums or reperfs. In coins, there are lots of grading companies, and many have a bad reputation. If stamp grading catches on, I'm sure stamp grading companies will increase. Its already happening in currency grading. They may grade a stamp as Sup 98 when anyone else would say VF or XF or maybe its appearance isn't the best. A new collector not familiar with the material and not familiar with the grading company may overspend; thus that is what I meant by someone buying the cert and not the stamp.

Doug

wmerlin

Hey Doug.

Good post.

We all overspend when we really want, and cannot live w/o, something! Novice or experienced, stupid and idiotic desire can take over.

I just purchased a 90 grade NH 310. The stamp has been driving me nuts trying to find a really nice one. Of course, when one which is really nice comes on the market, and it is even graded, the price is through the roof. Haggle, curse and wait. But, I finally give in before, I think, some other poor soul in the same boat with less sense, buys it for even a higher absurd price. But, at least I know, it is authentic NH and an XF.

I would hate to pay the sum I did "hoping" I was not getting ripped off.

Chip