Doesn't a manager have to retire before he can qualify for the HOF as a manager? Players must wait 5 years after retirement (unless they are killed while still active, like Clemente). I'm not sure how long managers have to wait.
Anyone who managed the Yankees during the 1996-2000 era would have done just as well as Joe Torre, even the dumbest moron could have won a World Series with those teams. Prior to taking over the Yankees in 1996, he was a run-of-the-mill manager for 13 of the 14 previous seasons, leading only one team to the playoffs and losing in the NLCS. The fact that the Yankees have failed to win a World Series since 2000 with the amount of talent they have on that team shows precisely why Joe Torre is nothing special as a manager. Last season especially, to blow a 3-0 lead in the ALCS.
There is no place in the HOF for a guy who was handed the highest paid, most talented team, every single season and fails to lead them to victory. Steinbrenner is, and always has been, running the show... Torre is just a pawn.
Managers either have to be retired for five years or wait 6 months after retirement if age 65 or older to be eligible for HOF election by the Veteran's Committee. Since Joe just turned 65, he would be eligible six months after he retires.
<< <i>Anyone who managed the Yankees during the 1996-2000 era would have done just as well as Joe Torre, even the dumbest moron could have won a World Series with those teams. Prior to taking over the Yankees in 1996, he was a run-of-the-mill manager for 13 of the 14 previous seasons, leading only one team to the playoffs and losing in the NLCS. The fact that the Yankees have failed to win a World Series since 2000 with the amount of talent they have on that team shows precisely why Joe Torre is nothing special as a manager. Last season especially, to blow a 3-0 lead in the ALCS.
There is no place in the HOF for a guy who was handed the highest paid, most talented team, every single season and fails to lead them to victory. Steinbrenner is, and always has been, running the show... Torre is just a pawn. >>
I actually was formulating those same words when I saw the scan!
As a player he was good, 18 year career, but not a standout. He would not get in on those merits alone. As a manager I think he is a shoo-in. Whether or not it is deserving is another debate. I, for one, think the Bulls and Lakers would not have been as successful without Phil Jackson. So I have to think that Torre was an intergal part of the equation for the Yanks. But I think a dozen or so other Mgrs could have achieved the same reults.
Casey Stengel was a pretty mediocre manager both before and after managing the Yankees, but that didn't stop him from getting elected. Balance Joe Torre's baseball career both as a player and a manager and it adds up to HOF.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I agree Torre has been handed some great teams. Im not sure that the 1996 team was expected to be so dominant and Torre did a great job with that team. Another thing Torre has been able to do as a Yankees manager is keep those guys in check and handle the NY media. Think of Bobby Valentine when he was managing the Mets...he was pretty much run out of town just because he a great ability to use his mouth! I actually miss seeing Valentine in NY! Always in controversy. Billy Martin got away with what he did because most of his career was as a Yankee.
Torre's teams the past 5 years have led the league (by far) in payroll, yet no titles to hear of.
He was the manager on the losing side of the biggest choke in sports history.
He is managing a $200 million team to a .500 record this year.
He'll get into the hall on his accomplishments early on in his yankee tenure, but it's apparent he clearly wasn't the reason those teams won the rings. As someone else mentioned, what did he do as a manager prior to landing in yankee land?
Torre's record with the Yanks puts him in with some really special company.
Let's look at the glass as half full - 4 WS rings in 9 years? Now if he manages for another 9 and self destructs, then we may have something to criticize.
Yanks choked last year - but they still got to the playoffs. He manages and doesn't play all nine positions on the team. All managers will make mistakes. The guys is a postseason machine. I wish Atlanta had done as well.
<< <i>Anyone who managed the Yankees during the 1996-2000 era would have done just as well as Joe Torre, even the dumbest moron could have won a World Series with those teams. Prior to taking over the Yankees in 1996, he was a run-of-the-mill manager for 13 of the 14 previous seasons, leading only one team to the playoffs and losing in the NLCS. The fact that the Yankees have failed to win a World Series since 2000 with the amount of talent they have on that team shows precisely why Joe Torre is nothing special as a manager. Last season especially, to blow a 3-0 lead in the ALCS.
There is no place in the HOF for a guy who was handed the highest paid, most talented team, every single season and fails to lead them to victory. Steinbrenner is, and always has been, running the show... Torre is just a pawn. >>
Ahhh Yankee haters, gotta love them
What you don't understand is that the Yankees have operated this way since Yankee Stadium was built. ALWAYS raiding other teams for talent and spending more than anybody else. It didn't START with George Steinbrenner. This would render Miller Huggins, Joe McCarthy, and Casey Stengle as "pawns" also. A opinion that wreaks of envy really, and just flat out wrong.
I agree dan, the yankees have almost always have had the highest payroll. This just didnt start with steinbrenner. and for the reason the yankees did not win during the early 90's isn't that when steinbrenner was banned from baseball? he, i'm sure, didn't care if they won or lost at that time. as a matter of fact he prolly made sure they didn't. that way he could look like a genius when he came back and they returned to prominence.
How many times did the browns win the pennant? or the indians?
the more baseball changes it seems to stay the same...........
the yankees will always have the high payroll, thus the best players
Im rooting though for an oriole/whitesox - nationals ws though this year.
<< <i> the more baseball changes it seems to stay the same...........
>>
Man what is it with you and that saying?
And you say the yankees have always had the highest payroll...which would explain why they have the most world series wins than any other team?
And you call me a yankee hater? While that may be true, but it doesn't take away from the fact that outside of the Yankees, he has a career .477 winning percentage. Suddenly, overnight, he became a manager who can win games at a .610 clip? That .477 percentage is on nearly 2000 games, too, so it's not like it's an aberration.
Torre took over in 1996.
1995 the Yankees made it to the playoffs (lost to the Mariners after going up 2-0 in the series). 1994 (strike year) they were 70-43 and in first by 6.5 games, and had the best record in the AL when the strike ended the season.
So it's not like the Yankees weren't successful under Buck Showalter. They would have had a legitimate shot at winning it all in 94...if that happens, does Torre even get hired?
I am not taking away from Torre's accomplishments. I am simply saying context is needed to say 'hey, Torre was a sub .500 before coming to the yankees. The Yankees were indeed succesful (consecutive postseason appearances) before Torre arrived.' Add in the fact the yankee payroll has continue to spiral skyward should speak volumes on just how much Torre is a part of the formula.
When Joe Torre arrived with the Yankees he had what EVERY manager in history needs to win. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING!!!! Good pitching made Joe Torre a lock for the hall. Everything else is pyscho over analysis.
Talk payroll all ya want. They spent it well and were ALLOWED to, and have always BEEN allowed to.
I guess 7 out of 9 superstars ain't enough for underachieving Yanks. Now they're talking about adding Griffey. Man, the prospect of that needs its own thread.
<< <i>I guess 7 out of 9 superstars ain't enough for underachieving Yanks. Now they're talking about adding Griffey. Man, the prospect of that needs its own thread. >>
Who cares whether or not the rumors are true, right? Who cares if it makes NO SENSE whatsoever for the Yanks to replace an aging Bernie Williams with an aging injury riddled Griffey if it sounds good, right?
The Yankees are looking towards no longer having the massive contracts of Bernie and Kevin Brown after this year. No way are they going to take on Griffeys contract.
<< <i>When Joe Torre arrived with the Yankees he had what EVERY manager in history needs to win. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING!!!! Good pitching made Joe Torre a lock for the hall. Everything else is pyscho over analysis.
Talk payroll all ya want. They spent it well and were ALLOWED to, and have always BEEN allowed to.
Sour grapes >>
If the yankees spend their money so well as you claim, why have they not won a WS since 2000? Why has this year and it's ridiculous 200 million payroll not resulted in anything better than a .500 record?
Sour grapes? Not hardly. But I find it amusing when the first thing so-called yankee 'fans' bring up is the number of world series championships they've won. Makes me wonder if they are a fan of the yanks or a fan of their success.
<< <i>Who cares whether or not the rumors are true, right? Who cares if it makes NO SENSE whatsoever for the Yanks to replace an aging Bernie Williams with an aging injury riddled Griffey if it sounds good, right? >>
Right. Speculation is part of the fun of being a baseball fan.
And if they DID do such a thing, we would not criticize them because, after all, they are professionals and we should always trust that the experts know what they're doing.
Are there people out there that actually "hate" the Yankees - or is that rhetorical for just saying...if they win another pennant or WS, I'm going to switch to following bowling!
Are there people out there that actually "hate" the Yankees - or is that rhetorical for just saying...if they win another pennant or WS, I'm going to switch to following bowling!
mike >>
I don't hate the yankees.
I hate what they have been allowed to do.
With no salary cap in place, they've effectively eliminated 1/3 of the teams from ever having a serious chance at contending. Why should a team like tampa bay go out and spend an additional 50 million and get up to 85 million or so when they have NY spending $200 million and boston spending well over $130?
I don't see how raising team salaries like this is good for any fan. Yankees spend obscene amounts, other teams have to follow suit to stay competitive, and the ones who end up paying are the fans with ridiculous seat pricing, ridiculous food pricing, etc. etc.
As a Yankee fan, I'd rather have George Steinbrenner spend his millions on the Yankees themselves than say, build a 200 room mansion on a private island with his profits. That's just how I feel. People can hate on George all they want, but all he wants to do is win. He has more resources available to him than any team in MLB. If he makes $500 million a year on tv rights, radio, stadium revenue, etc...why is it such a crime for him to put what the FANS OF NEW YORK give him back into the NEW YORK Yankees??
Instead of bashing the Yanks for rewarding their fans, why don't you bash the owners of the Reds, Pirates, Milwaukee, Dbacks and other teams who abandoned their fans after getting the new ballparks? The taxpayers shell out $300 million for a park and they get a $35 million payroll?
<< <i> I have never seen a fan boycott - so in essence the consumer is getting what they want?
mike >>
Or perhaps because they have no alternative?
Consumers have been boycotting attending movies in record numbers this year. 20+ straight weeks of declines over last year's numbers speaks loudly to the fact that consumers are sick and tired of paying the ridiculous cost of going to the movies, and instead are staying home and renting DVDs instead.
Ticket prices for most musical concerts are down over last year because of the number of people who stayed away. Having so much music available on demand gave consumers a choice between paying high ticket prices, or simply not. People chose not to, and for the first time in 15 years, ticket prices were reduced.
However, when it comes to sports, there are no viable alternatives. People pay the price to watch a baseball game because there is no other similar experience. Same with football, and the other sports. Team owners have a captive audience, and they know it.
If a salary cap were to be put into place in baseball, with real revenue sharing from tv revenues, ticket prices and the overall cost associated with going to a game could be drastically reduced. It would force team owners to actually be responsible when it came to signing contracts.
I am not holding my breath on it happening any time soon.
Are there people out there that actually "hate" the Yankees - or is that rhetorical for just saying...if they win another pennant or WS, I'm going to switch to following bowling!
mike >>
I don't hate the yankees.
I hate what they have been allowed to do.
With no salary cap in place, they've effectively eliminated 1/3 of the teams from ever having a serious chance at contending. Why should a team like tampa bay go out and spend an additional 50 million and get up to 85 million or so when they have NY spending $200 million and boston spending well over $130?
I don't see how raising team salaries like this is good for any fan. Yankees spend obscene amounts, other teams have to follow suit to stay competitive, and the ones who end up paying are the fans with ridiculous seat pricing, ridiculous food pricing, etc. etc. >>
Hey, these are all valid points. BUT the Yankees have been doing this since the mid 1920's. The really have. They raid the smaller market teams and spend gobs of money. Same Yankees as in 1927, 1937, 1947, 1957 and so on ....... in the old days MORE THAN 1/3 of teams were eliminated before opening day. Check it out.
And, just because the Yankees spend 200+ million does not ensure championships. As a someone who knows the game you should know better than that. FIRST the money has to be spent correctly which means making solid choices invoving the pitching staff. The Yankees laid golden eggs for 10 years. Now the table is turned. 2. The game is played on the field. No matter the payroll, not that much separates big league players, and they play on a field where money does not decide a game.
<< <i>As a Yankee fan, I'd rather have George Steinbrenner spend his millions on the Yankees themselves than say, build a 200 room mansion on a private island with his profits. That's just how I feel. People can hate on George all they want, but all he wants to do is win. He has more resources available to him than any team in MLB. If he makes $500 million a year on tv rights, radio, stadium revenue, etc...why is it such a crime for him to put what the FANS OF NEW YORK give him back into the NEW YORK Yankees??
Instead of bashing the Yanks for rewarding their fans, why don't you bash the owners of the Reds, Pirates, Milwaukee, Dbacks and other teams who abandoned their fans after getting the new ballparks? The taxpayers shell out $300 million for a park and they get a $35 million payroll? >>
<< <i>not that much separates big league players >>
Are you serious?
Do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly think that a career .240 batter is not that far off from a gary sheffield or alex rodriguez?
Or that a career 6.00 ERA pitcher is not that much seperated from a pedro martinez or roger clemens?
What having a HUGE salary like the yankees does is give the ability to cover up a lot more mistakes than a smaller payroll does. A team with much more limited resources goes out and spend a ton on a free agent, and he's a bust, they don't have the ability to cover it up with another big free agent signing.
How many big name free agent busts have the yankees had this year? Nearly their entire pitching staff. Yet they are able to contend because of the amount of money and talent their $200 million payroll bought them in hitters.
People who think it's as easy as throwing money at it are oversimplifying the issue.
<< <i>However, when it comes to sports, there are no viable alternatives >>
If a person really didn't want to spend the money - they would find an alternative. I'm a big baseball fan but if they cancelled the entire next 5 seasons, I would survive very well.
People ALLOW themselves to be taken advantage of - again complicated issue having to do with people only going once a year and don't care to corporate money being pumped into the major portion of the infield of every ball park and then the tickets being given away to employees, clients etc.
This is bigger than all of us - but fun to talk about!
And also, salaries - Oakland has won like 35 of the last 40+ games on a 50 mill. salary team.
Torre had a better than average career as a player spanning 18 years, batted .363 in 1971. He was a MVP & RBI Leader, Nine-time All-Star, Manager of the Year (twice), had a 46-18 record in the Post season, also he belted 252 home runs, Managed over 2,700 games, survived cancer, had multi years batting over .300. Oh yeah, Torre had 2,342 hits an on base percentage of: .365 and slugging: .452.
So with about 18 years as a player And 22 years as a manager (Wow! is that right? )
Did you know? Torre is one of only 2 players to be selected to the All-star game at two different positions (other being Craig Biggio).
Hall of Fame? With that 40 year career as a player & manager?
He had a good career as a player, with the bright spot being 1971 (obviously).
Had he not latched onto the golden ticket (i.e. Yankees) he wouldn't be considered a HoFer by anyone's standards.
That being said, I am not arguing against his induction - lord knows he'll be a first ballot guy. But looking beneath the facade of that post-season record, you'll see an average manager who got lucky with an incredible situation in NY.
It's funny you mention his playoff managing record....what was it before he got to NY?
It was 0-3. One playoff appearance in 14 years of managing prior to NY.
For those that are saying there's no viable alternative to watching a major league baseball game, get a HDTV and you'll come damn close.
I went to a Cardinals game a few weeks ago and baked under the sun for three hours in 95 degree heat. I'd rather follow a game on the ESPN gamecenter than do something like that again.
As far as Griffey Jr becoming a Yankee....it will NEVER happen. Griffey I believe has a no trade clause. It's pretty well known that Griffey Jr hates everything about the Yankees. It all has to do with when Sr was a Yankee and Jr wasnt allowed in the clubhouse or on the field with his father. So, there is no way Jr wants to be a Yankee...as long as Stienbrenner is there running the ship.
<< <i>For those that are saying there's no viable alternative to watching a major league baseball game, get a HDTV and you'll come damn close. >>
I have an HDTV, and I am of the mind that it's nowhere near the experience.
Baseball on tv has become nearly unwatchable...sportscasters filling every single second of the game with talk, with graphic overlay after strike zone analysis to the unending commercials, baseball in person is light years better than on tv.
<< <i>For those that are saying there's no viable alternative to watching a major league baseball game, get a HDTV and you'll come damn close. >>
I have an HDTV, and I am of the mind that it's nowhere near the experience.
Baseball on tv has become nearly unwatchable...sportscasters filling every single second of the game with talk, with graphic overlay after strike zone analysis to the unending commercials, baseball in person is light years better than on tv. >>
<< <i>For those that are saying there's no viable alternative to watching a major league baseball game, get a HDTV and you'll come damn close. >>
I have an HDTV, and I am of the mind that it's nowhere near the experience.
Baseball on tv has become nearly unwatchable...sportscasters filling every single second of the game with talk, with graphic overlay after strike zone analysis to the unending commercials, baseball in person is light years better than on tv. >>
Let's see; you complain there is no "viable alternative" to watching a live MLB game because it's too expensive. Then you proceed to gripe about baseball on tv having too many commercials and graphics. No doubt you'll hate baseball on radio because it's FILLED with commercials.
What sort of alternative are you looking for? To the rest of the world, the ONLY alternative to not attending a MLB game live and yet watching one anyway is to watch on the television (or listen on the radio).
If you think baseball in person is "light years better than on tv," then go to the game and sit in the bleachers!!
Watching a movie in the theater is easily replaced by watching a DVD at home. That's a viable alternative...similar experience, WAY cheaper.
There is no alternative to seeing a game in person. Watching it at home is nowhere near the same experience. >>
How is watching a DVD at home the same as watching a movie in the theater? Watching a movie requires you to actually get dressed and "go out." You know, as in doing something with someone else as part of an evening. People watch movies because of the giant screen, the theater and the fact you watch it IMMEDIATELY! You don't have to wait 4-5 months for it to come out on DVD. People watch movies with friends and discuss the movie with co-workers the next day.
At least with watching a game on tv, I get to see everything the person at the game is watching (sometimes more with replays).
dabig do not ask him too many questions at one time, Im still waiting for him to answer his claim that the AL has a higher ERA between 1924 and 1941 because of the DH.
Joe Torre and Phil Jackson. Both over hyped and not nearly as good as their records indicate. It must take a lot of talent to tell high priced mercenaries where to play each day. Both were average players who could not achieve hall of fame success on their own and had to ride on the coattails of others.
Comments
He is a lock for the hall as a manager
Dan
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
by a pitbull.
There is no place in the HOF for a guy who was handed the highest paid, most talented team, every single season and fails to lead them to victory. Steinbrenner is, and always has been, running the show... Torre is just a pawn.
-Todd-
<< <i>Isn't he a lock for the Hall? >>
Yes, he is.
Should he be? Much tougher question.
<< <i>Anyone who managed the Yankees during the 1996-2000 era would have done just as well as Joe Torre, even the dumbest moron could have won a World Series with those teams. Prior to taking over the Yankees in 1996, he was a run-of-the-mill manager for 13 of the 14 previous seasons, leading only one team to the playoffs and losing in the NLCS. The fact that the Yankees have failed to win a World Series since 2000 with the amount of talent they have on that team shows precisely why Joe Torre is nothing special as a manager. Last season especially, to blow a 3-0 lead in the ALCS.
There is no place in the HOF for a guy who was handed the highest paid, most talented team, every single season and fails to lead them to victory. Steinbrenner is, and always has been, running the show... Torre is just a pawn. >>
<< <i>Holy ROUGH cuts batman! >>
I actually was formulating those same words when I saw the scan!
As a player he was good, 18 year career, but not a standout. He would not get in on those merits alone. As a manager I think he is a shoo-in. Whether or not it is deserving is another debate. I, for one, think the Bulls and Lakers would not have been as successful without Phil Jackson. So I have to think that Torre was an intergal part of the equation for the Yanks. But I think a dozen or so other Mgrs could have achieved the same reults.
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Think of Bobby Valentine when he was managing the Mets...he was pretty much run out of town just because he a great ability to use his mouth! I actually miss seeing Valentine in NY! Always in controversy.
Billy Martin got away with what he did because most of his career was as a Yankee.
He was the manager on the losing side of the biggest choke in sports history.
He is managing a $200 million team to a .500 record this year.
He'll get into the hall on his accomplishments early on in his yankee tenure, but it's apparent he clearly wasn't the reason those teams won the rings. As someone else mentioned, what did he do as a manager prior to landing in yankee land?
TO JOE TORRE!!!!!!
I heard he has a son named Ho Tran Torre.
Well so were the other managers before him for something like 14 seasons with nothing to show for it.
Torre - last 9 seasons - 4 WS rings!
The guy will go in the HOF. In fact, IMO, managing a "money team" with Steiny as owner should qualify him for the HOF AND Sainthood!
mike
edit: his managerial record:
Atlanta 486 257 229 .529
NewYorkM 709 286 420 .405
NewYorkY 1456 887 567 .610
St.Louis 706 351 354 .498
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 3357 1781 1570 .531
Tho this doesn't look that great - ya gotta compare it will all managers in baseball - and it really isn't that bad IMO.
One playoff appearance before arriving in the money (err I mean the yankees).
Like I said, he'll get in...but I think any number of managers would have had a few world series rings with the teams from 96-00.
Let's look at the glass as half full - 4 WS rings in 9 years? Now if he manages for another 9 and self destructs, then we may have something to criticize.
Yanks choked last year - but they still got to the playoffs. He manages and doesn't play all nine positions on the team. All managers will make mistakes. The guys is a postseason machine. I wish Atlanta had done as well.
mike
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Torre
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<< <i>Anyone who managed the Yankees during the 1996-2000 era would have done just as well as Joe Torre, even the dumbest moron could have won a World Series with those teams. Prior to taking over the Yankees in 1996, he was a run-of-the-mill manager for 13 of the 14 previous seasons, leading only one team to the playoffs and losing in the NLCS. The fact that the Yankees have failed to win a World Series since 2000 with the amount of talent they have on that team shows precisely why Joe Torre is nothing special as a manager. Last season especially, to blow a 3-0 lead in the ALCS.
There is no place in the HOF for a guy who was handed the highest paid, most talented team, every single season and fails to lead them to victory. Steinbrenner is, and always has been, running the show... Torre is just a pawn. >>
Ahhh Yankee haters, gotta love them
What you don't understand is that the Yankees have operated this way since Yankee Stadium was built. ALWAYS raiding other teams for talent and spending more than anybody else. It didn't START with George Steinbrenner.
This would render Miller Huggins, Joe McCarthy, and Casey Stengle as "pawns" also. A opinion that wreaks of envy really, and just flat out wrong.
Dan
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
How many times did the browns win the pennant? or the indians?
the more baseball changes it seems to stay the same...........
the yankees will always have the high payroll, thus the best players
Im rooting though for an oriole/whitesox - nationals ws though this year.
steve
<< <i>
the more baseball changes it seems to stay the same...........
>>
Man what is it with you and that saying?
And you say the yankees have always had the highest payroll...which would explain why they have the most world series wins than any other team?
And you call me a yankee hater? While that may be true, but it doesn't take away from the fact that outside of the Yankees, he has a career .477 winning percentage. Suddenly, overnight, he became a manager who can win games at a .610 clip? That .477 percentage is on nearly 2000 games, too, so it's not like it's an aberration.
Torre took over in 1996.
1995 the Yankees made it to the playoffs (lost to the Mariners after going up 2-0 in the series).
1994 (strike year) they were 70-43 and in first by 6.5 games, and had the best record in the AL when the strike ended the season.
So it's not like the Yankees weren't successful under Buck Showalter. They would have had a legitimate shot at winning it all in 94...if that happens, does Torre even get hired?
I am not taking away from Torre's accomplishments. I am simply saying context is needed to say 'hey, Torre was a sub .500 before coming to the yankees. The Yankees were indeed succesful (consecutive postseason appearances) before Torre arrived.' Add in the fact the yankee payroll has continue to spiral skyward should speak volumes on just how much Torre is a part of the formula.
Good pitching made Joe Torre a lock for the hall. Everything else is pyscho over analysis.
Talk payroll all ya want. They spent it well and were ALLOWED to, and have always BEEN allowed to.
Sour grapes
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
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<< <i>I guess 7 out of 9 superstars ain't enough for underachieving Yanks. Now they're talking about adding Griffey. Man, the prospect of that needs its own thread. >>
Who cares whether or not the rumors are true, right? Who cares if it makes NO SENSE whatsoever for the Yanks to replace an aging Bernie Williams with an aging injury riddled Griffey if it sounds good, right?
The Yankees are looking towards no longer having the massive contracts of Bernie and Kevin Brown after this year. No way are they going to take on Griffeys contract.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>When Joe Torre arrived with the Yankees he had what EVERY manager in history needs to win. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING!!!!
Good pitching made Joe Torre a lock for the hall. Everything else is pyscho over analysis.
Talk payroll all ya want. They spent it well and were ALLOWED to, and have always BEEN allowed to.
Sour grapes >>
If the yankees spend their money so well as you claim, why have they not won a WS since 2000? Why has this year and it's ridiculous 200 million payroll not resulted in anything better than a .500 record?
Sour grapes? Not hardly. But I find it amusing when the first thing so-called yankee 'fans' bring up is the number of world series championships they've won. Makes me wonder if they are a fan of the yanks or a fan of their success.
<< <i>Who cares whether or not the rumors are true, right? Who cares if it makes NO SENSE whatsoever for the Yanks to replace an aging Bernie Williams with an aging injury riddled Griffey if it sounds good, right? >>
Right. Speculation is part of the fun of being a baseball fan.
And if they DID do such a thing, we would not criticize them because, after all, they are professionals and we should always trust that the experts know what they're doing.
Are there people out there that actually "hate" the Yankees - or is that rhetorical for just saying...if they win another pennant or WS, I'm going to switch to following bowling!
mike
<< <i>Question?
Are there people out there that actually "hate" the Yankees - or is that rhetorical for just saying...if they win another pennant or WS, I'm going to switch to following bowling!
mike >>
I don't hate the yankees.
I hate what they have been allowed to do.
With no salary cap in place, they've effectively eliminated 1/3 of the teams from ever having a serious chance at contending. Why should a team like tampa bay go out and spend an additional 50 million and get up to 85 million or so when they have NY spending $200 million and boston spending well over $130?
I don't see how raising team salaries like this is good for any fan. Yankees spend obscene amounts, other teams have to follow suit to stay competitive, and the ones who end up paying are the fans with ridiculous seat pricing, ridiculous food pricing, etc. etc.
<< <i>and the ones who end up paying are the fans with ridiculous seat pricing, ridiculous food pricing, etc. etc. >>
Ax
This is such a complicated issue, that I think it would be easier to attain world peace or a cure for all forms of cancer.
In the end, baseball/baseball owners do what they do - players ask for more money...that's what they do.
I have never seen a fan boycott - so in essence the consumer is getting what they want?
mike
Instead of bashing the Yanks for rewarding their fans, why don't you bash the owners of the Reds, Pirates, Milwaukee, Dbacks and other teams who abandoned their fans after getting the new ballparks? The taxpayers shell out $300 million for a park and they get a $35 million payroll?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
I have never seen a fan boycott - so in essence the consumer is getting what they want?
mike >>
Or perhaps because they have no alternative?
Consumers have been boycotting attending movies in record numbers this year. 20+ straight weeks of declines over last year's numbers speaks loudly to the fact that consumers are sick and tired of paying the ridiculous cost of going to the movies, and instead are staying home and renting DVDs instead.
Ticket prices for most musical concerts are down over last year because of the number of people who stayed away. Having so much music available on demand gave consumers a choice between paying high ticket prices, or simply not. People chose not to, and for the first time in 15 years, ticket prices were reduced.
However, when it comes to sports, there are no viable alternatives. People pay the price to watch a baseball game because there is no other similar experience. Same with football, and the other sports. Team owners have a captive audience, and they know it.
If a salary cap were to be put into place in baseball, with real revenue sharing from tv revenues, ticket prices and the overall cost associated with going to a game could be drastically reduced. It would force team owners to actually be responsible when it came to signing contracts.
I am not holding my breath on it happening any time soon.
<< <i>
<< <i>Question?
Are there people out there that actually "hate" the Yankees - or is that rhetorical for just saying...if they win another pennant or WS, I'm going to switch to following bowling!
mike >>
I don't hate the yankees.
I hate what they have been allowed to do.
With no salary cap in place, they've effectively eliminated 1/3 of the teams from ever having a serious chance at contending. Why should a team like tampa bay go out and spend an additional 50 million and get up to 85 million or so when they have NY spending $200 million and boston spending well over $130?
I don't see how raising team salaries like this is good for any fan. Yankees spend obscene amounts, other teams have to follow suit to stay competitive, and the ones who end up paying are the fans with ridiculous seat pricing, ridiculous food pricing, etc. etc. >>
Hey, these are all valid points. BUT the Yankees have been doing this since the mid 1920's. The really have. They raid the smaller market teams and spend gobs of money. Same Yankees as in 1927, 1937, 1947, 1957 and so on ....... in the old days MORE THAN 1/3 of teams were eliminated before opening day. Check it out.
And, just because the Yankees spend 200+ million does not ensure championships. As a someone who knows the game you should know better than that. FIRST the money has to be spent correctly which means making solid choices invoving the pitching staff. The Yankees laid golden eggs for 10 years. Now the table is turned. 2. The game is played on the field. No matter the payroll, not that much separates big league players, and they play on a field where money does not decide a game.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>As a Yankee fan, I'd rather have George Steinbrenner spend his millions on the Yankees themselves than say, build a 200 room mansion on a private island with his profits. That's just how I feel. People can hate on George all they want, but all he wants to do is win. He has more resources available to him than any team in MLB. If he makes $500 million a year on tv rights, radio, stadium revenue, etc...why is it such a crime for him to put what the FANS OF NEW YORK give him back into the NEW YORK Yankees??
Instead of bashing the Yanks for rewarding their fans, why don't you bash the owners of the Reds, Pirates, Milwaukee, Dbacks and other teams who abandoned their fans after getting the new ballparks? The taxpayers shell out $300 million for a park and they get a $35 million payroll? >>
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>not that much separates big league players >>
Are you serious?
Do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly think that a career .240 batter is not that far off from a gary sheffield or alex rodriguez?
Or that a career 6.00 ERA pitcher is not that much seperated from a pedro martinez or roger clemens?
What having a HUGE salary like the yankees does is give the ability to cover up a lot more mistakes than a smaller payroll does. A team with much more limited resources goes out and spend a ton on a free agent, and he's a bust, they don't have the ability to cover it up with another big free agent signing.
How many big name free agent busts have the yankees had this year? Nearly their entire pitching staff. Yet they are able to contend because of the amount of money and talent their $200 million payroll bought them in hitters.
People who think it's as easy as throwing money at it are oversimplifying the issue.
<< <i>However, when it comes to sports, there are no viable alternatives >>
If a person really didn't want to spend the money - they would find an alternative. I'm a big baseball fan but if they cancelled the entire next 5 seasons, I would survive very well.
People ALLOW themselves to be taken advantage of - again complicated issue having to do with people only going once a year and don't care to corporate money being pumped into the major portion of the infield of every ball park and then the tickets being given away to employees, clients etc.
This is bigger than all of us - but fun to talk about!
And also, salaries - Oakland has won like 35 of the last 40+ games on a 50 mill. salary team.
mike
<< <i>
<< <i>not that much separates big league players >>
Are you serious?
Do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly think that a career .240 batter is not that far off from a gary sheffield or alex rodriguez?
>>
Hell yes, not only do I believe it, I know it.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
So with about 18 years as a player
And 22 years as a manager (Wow! is that right? )
Did you know? Torre is one of only 2 players to be selected to the All-star game at two different positions (other being Craig Biggio).
Hall of Fame? With that 40 year career as a player & manager?
YES!
rbd
Career Stats
More Torre Stats!
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Had he not latched onto the golden ticket (i.e. Yankees) he wouldn't be considered a HoFer by anyone's standards.
That being said, I am not arguing against his induction - lord knows he'll be a first ballot guy. But looking beneath the facade of that post-season record, you'll see an average manager who got lucky with an incredible situation in NY.
It's funny you mention his playoff managing record....what was it before he got to NY?
It was 0-3. One playoff appearance in 14 years of managing prior to NY.
I went to a Cardinals game a few weeks ago and baked under the sun for three hours in 95 degree heat. I'd rather follow a game on the ESPN gamecenter than do something like that again.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
So, there is no way Jr wants to be a Yankee...as long as Stienbrenner is there running the ship.
<< <i>For those that are saying there's no viable alternative to watching a major league baseball game, get a HDTV and you'll come damn close. >>
I have an HDTV, and I am of the mind that it's nowhere near the experience.
Baseball on tv has become nearly unwatchable...sportscasters filling every single second of the game with talk, with graphic overlay after strike zone analysis to the unending commercials, baseball in person is light years better than on tv.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those that are saying there's no viable alternative to watching a major league baseball game, get a HDTV and you'll come damn close. >>
I have an HDTV, and I am of the mind that it's nowhere near the experience.
Baseball on tv has become nearly unwatchable...sportscasters filling every single second of the game with talk, with graphic overlay after strike zone analysis to the unending commercials, baseball in person is light years better than on tv. >>
Wow, you finally said something I agree with
Maybe there's hope for you after all
Steve
I used to go to Cardinal games when I was stationed in St. Louis - I was next to the Kiel Auditorium.
They had artificial turf at the time and it felt like the sun heated that crap up and baked the stadium!
mike
<< <i>
<< <i>For those that are saying there's no viable alternative to watching a major league baseball game, get a HDTV and you'll come damn close. >>
I have an HDTV, and I am of the mind that it's nowhere near the experience.
Baseball on tv has become nearly unwatchable...sportscasters filling every single second of the game with talk, with graphic overlay after strike zone analysis to the unending commercials, baseball in person is light years better than on tv. >>
Let's see; you complain there is no "viable alternative" to watching a live MLB game because it's too expensive. Then you proceed to gripe about baseball on tv having too many commercials and graphics. No doubt you'll hate baseball on radio because it's FILLED with commercials.
What sort of alternative are you looking for? To the rest of the world, the ONLY alternative to not attending a MLB game live and yet watching one anyway is to watch on the television (or listen on the radio).
If you think baseball in person is "light years better than on tv," then go to the game and sit in the bleachers!!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Watching a movie in the theater is easily replaced by watching a DVD at home. That's a viable alternative...similar experience, WAY cheaper.
There is no alternative to seeing a game in person. Watching it at home is nowhere near the same experience.
<< <i>You must enjoy not paying attention.
Watching a movie in the theater is easily replaced by watching a DVD at home. That's a viable alternative...similar experience, WAY cheaper.
There is no alternative to seeing a game in person. Watching it at home is nowhere near the same experience. >>
How is watching a DVD at home the same as watching a movie in the theater? Watching a movie requires you to actually get dressed and "go out." You know, as in doing something with someone else as part of an evening. People watch movies because of the giant screen, the theater and the fact you watch it IMMEDIATELY! You don't have to wait 4-5 months for it to come out on DVD. People watch movies with friends and discuss the movie with co-workers the next day.
At least with watching a game on tv, I get to see everything the person at the game is watching (sometimes more with replays).
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Sd