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1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10

Dear Group,
Thanks for your input regarding the $10K for Bonds v. Mays. Now I see
this: A 1984 Fleer Roger Clemens BGS 10. Auction still has 8 days to go and
it already is over $10K with 23 bids. Here is the link:

1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10

Where do you think this will end at? I wouldn't be surprised if it were over
$20K. I hear what you say about over production, but wasn't the Fleer Update
set produced in limited numbers? And so, there aren't likely too many high
condition cards remaining out there that are not graded. Just my thoughts.

Funny thing about the auction, it's a decent picture of the card. However, it
could be a lot better.

/s/ JackWESQ
image

Comments

  • halosfanhalosfan Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭✭
    Well as a collector who has more modern cards than vintage cards I'll be the first to say that that price is RIDICULOUS! for that kind of cake I could aquire a number of very fine cards in both the vintage amd modern arenas. There is (My opinion only) no chance that this card and the Bonds card you referenced hold those values over time.
    Looking for a Glen Rice Inkredible and Alex Rodriguez cards
  • EagleEyeKidEagleEyeKid Posts: 4,496 ✭✭
    First of all (this is just my opinion), I can't see how any card
    coming out of those little flemsy box could hold a pristine grade. This applies to the 86 TT and 86 TT Tiffany. Gem mint maybe. I wouldn't be at all surprise if the Clemens card received a bit of help along the way before being holdered. As a buyer; no way I would spend that kind of money. As an investment, I don't see how you can recoup 20k back down the road. If I really wanted that card, I'd pick up a nice PSA 9 just to have in my collection if I were a Rocket fan. More power to the seller if he can fetch 20k. If any of us had this card, we'd sell it immediately as well and pick up stuff we'd want.
  • jrdolanjrdolan Posts: 2,549 ✭✭
    This is too easy, and y'all are tired of hearing me saying it anyway. Let's just leave it that BGS 10 is not 10x better, or even 2x better, than PSA 10. If Beckett-folk want to believe that it is, then they have no one but themselves to blame a few months from now when it is discovered that the BGS pops have (quite by accident) not been updated since the flood of new 9.5's and 10's hit the market.

    Dang, I went and did it anyway.
  • ctsoxfanctsoxfan Posts: 6,246 ✭✭
    Again, I agree w/jrdolan on this - but, I'll go one step further: I bet these transactions don't often occur at all, anyway. For example, the current high bidder "mayhemcheerios" has a FB rating of 11, and one of his latest purchases was an item for $5.99. The current bid is now over $12,000.00 for this card image - does this add up to you?
    image
  • KnucklesKnuckles Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭
    Crazy people.. If I had that kind of money to blow I would blow it on Babe Ruth auto's... Cobb signed balls etc.. even if I already had a ton of them I would buy more rather than spend that kind of money on something modern.
    image
  • jrdolanjrdolan Posts: 2,549 ✭✭


    << <i>Again, I agree w/jrdolan on this - but, I'll go one step further: I bet these transactions don't often occur at all, anyway. For example, the current high bidder "mayhemcheerios" has a FB rating of 11, and one of his latest purchases was an item for $5.99. The current bid is now over $12,000.00 for this card image - does this add up to you? >>


    Well, there have been rumblings for some time that astronomical bidding on certain BGS 9.5's and 10's is sometimes, uh, incestuous in nature ... that Beckett "field correspondents" sometimes happen to be the sellers or bidders in the auction. You know, as part of the whole market-manipulation conspiracy theory. I don't believe any of that nonsense, of course. None of the dealers in BMP would angage in anything like that. Any more than they would cooperate on their pricing within Becket Marketplace. Just rumblings by jealous folks who aren't on the inside, working the system. Ignore it.
    image
  • I'm with Knuckles. If I had THAT much money to spend on cards I would buy something besides a modern card. But to each his own. I have nothing against modern, I buy it and have some really nice modern cards. But if I had 12g's(up to whatever it sells for) I too would rather have a Ruth or early Mantle etc etc etc.

    Ryan
  • StingrayStingray Posts: 8,843 ✭✭✭
    The current winning bidder has a feedback of 11 and the last card he bought was a 1952 Berra PRO 7? I don't get it the guy has a reserve on it and bidding is up to $14,000 and the reserve is still not met? What is the seller looking for? Not happy with over $10,000 for that one?

    Stingray
  • jrdolanjrdolan Posts: 2,549 ✭✭
    Sting, to steer the market or "set" an artificially high value, it's not necessary to do a fake sale, pay eBay's fee, and then have to explain why you're selling the card again a month or two later. Just set a very high reserve and let the sh-- I mean bidding begin. The sale doesn't complete because the reserve is not met, no final value fee, but now the market has been prepped.

    Next time, real bidders remember (or are told in the description) how high the bidding went last time. Beckett may even have gushed about it in the magazine, because a "field correspondent" reported the crazy bidding right on publication deadline. Next time, not so many low-feedback bidders with histories of buying $5.99 items are needed to kick the price up into the clouds.

    Like the old movies with crappy special effects, sometimes you can almost see the strings.
  • JackWESQJackWESQ Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
    So the first 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10 ended at $14,100.00 with the reserve not being met. That card
    was being sold by psaal. Now there is another auction for a 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10. Here is the link.

    1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10

    I didn't keep track or save the image of the first one, but the BGS population report indicates that there are two BGS
    10s out there. So it's possible that this is a different card. In any case, with a starting bid and BIN price of $18,000.00,
    I doubt there will be any bids. Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome.

    /s/ JackWESQ
    image


  • << <i>So the first 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10 ended at $14,100.00 with the reserve not being met. That card
    was being sold by psaal. Now there is another auction for a 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10. Here is the link.

    1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10

    I didn't keep track or save the image of the first one, but the BGS population report indicates that there are two BGS
    10s out there. So it's possible that this is a different card. In any case, with a starting bid and BIN price of $18,000.00,
    I doubt there will be any bids. Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome.

    /s/ JackWESQ >>


    Wow, I didn't know that BGS 10 cards could have 60/40 centering -- wow!!!

    image
  • lawnmowermanlawnmowerman Posts: 19,477 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    Wow, I didn't know that BGS 10 cards could have 60/40 centering -- wow!!! >>



    I believe my bgs 9.5 version of that card has better centering. Bgs 10's are pretty much a joke. Most likely given as a favor to high dollar bgs dealers.

    Matt

  • BoopottsBoopotts Posts: 6,784 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>
    Wow, I didn't know that BGS 10 cards could have 60/40 centering -- wow!!! >>



    I believe my bgs 9.5 version of that card has better centering. Bgs 10's are pretty much a joke. Most likely given as a favor to high dollar bgs dealers.

    Matt >>



    This last point should be re-emphasized. Anybody here think that some $15 dollar an hour card jockey in the Beckett grading room is just allowed to slap this kind of grade on a card and take it from being a $100 piece of cardboard to a 20K piece? Give me a break. There is NO WAY that card comes back BGS 10 if any of us send it in.

    In fact, I would like to know if anyone here-- and i know some guys here submit to Beckett, as I do occasionally-- have ever gotten a BGS 10 on a card that matters (i.e., not on a Fleer Metal card that's worth $3 as a BGS 9.5).

  • ctsoxfanctsoxfan Posts: 6,246 ✭✭


    << <i>Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome. >>



    That card is a PSA 9 if any of us send it in to PSA, and BGS grading is a complete joke, and you better believe that comment about BGS 10's being given out only to high dollar supporters of the sham that is BGS. Anyone who thinks of spending $18,000 dollars on this card needs to have his head examined.

    That's about it.
    image
  • lawnmowermanlawnmowerman Posts: 19,477 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    This last point should be re-emphasized. Anybody here think that some $15 dollar an hour card jockey in the Beckett grading room is just allowed to slap this kind of grade on a card and take it from being a $100 piece of cardboard to a 20K piece? Give me a break. There is NO WAY that card comes back BGS 10 if any of us send it in.

    In fact, I would like to know if anyone here-- and i know some guys here submit to Beckett, as I do occasionally-- have ever gotten a BGS 10 on a card that matters (i.e., not on a Fleer Metal card that's worth $3 as a BGS 9.5). >>

    I agree!
    I have submitted to Beckett only about 10 times. I only recieved a few 9.5 and never a 10. Now in my humble opinion, judging from my subs to psa I believe I have a pretty good grading eye. This leads me to believe that alot of the high volume guys that deal in bgs cards on ebay are without a doubt given better treatment then the average joe who sends in a few subs. Just to name a few: psaal, bgsbrad, bgsgradedrookies always have tons of 10's. I really dont care much anymore. Bgs quality has gone down pretty far just in the past year. My focus has shifted to buying psa graded cards only. All my subs are to Psa as well.
    Matt
  • I have submitted 5 times to beckett and i have recieved 3 10's and quite a few 9.5's. I have been to enough shows to know that it is not who you now, but rather how many times you submit a card. I know the bigger modern card graders and they have just as much "bad luck" as the rest of us... but they will pay and try it to get it done over and over again spending huge sums of money re-grading. There is not too much difference between a 9.5 and a 10 so on a given day a card may be given either. From what i have seen there is not much preference given on grades, only better prices the more one submits. .. As for the clemens, i really do not think it is all that off center. I bet if you did a pixel count you would find that out.
    www.sportsnutcards.com
    Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ


  • << <i>I have submitted 5 times to beckett and i have recieved 3 10's and quite a few 9.5's. I have been to enough shows to know that it is not who you now, but rather how many times you submit a card. I know the bigger modern card graders and they have just as much "bad luck" as the rest of us... but they will pay and try it to get it done over and over again spending huge sums of money re-grading. There is not too much difference between a 9.5 and a 10 so on a given day a card may be given either. From what i have seen there is not much preference given on grades, only better prices the more one submits. .. As for the clemens, i really do not think it is all that off center. I bet if you did a pixel count you would find that out. >>


    My pixel count on T/B was 59/41. Come on, how can you objectively (or even philosophically) really distinguish between GEM MINT and PRISTINE?
  • In fact, I would like to know if anyone here-- and i know some guys here submit to Beckett, as I do occasionally-- have ever gotten a BGS 10 on a card that matters (i.e., not on a Fleer Metal card that's worth $3 as a BGS 9.5).

    I've only received 1 BGS 10 (2003 SP Authentic Jiri Hudler Auto RC). Have sent them about 400 cards total since their inception in 1999.
    IMO, the pristine grade is a BS grade.
  • SDavidSDavid Posts: 1,584 ✭✭
    The centering looks the same to me as it does on the psa 10's I've seen from that set and from 87 fleer bb. The bottom border begins at the bottom of "pitcher", no? That's the way I've always looked at those cards and, by that criteria, the top and bottom borders are close to even.
  • Sure, the card's PSA 10. But BGS 10? Wonder what you'd get on a crack and resubmit to BGS? image
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a question...

    Does anyone consider a card like this a good investment?

    mike
    Mike
  • ctsoxfanctsoxfan Posts: 6,246 ✭✭
    Not even close, if you mean a BGS 10 of this card.

    Talking just about the card itself - the 84 Update Clemens is probably one of the best modern day RC's to "invest" in, but even then, how much more upside can there possibly be here? I think, even when he goes off into the Hall in 5 or so years, this card will probably not be much more than it is today. I bought several of his 1985 Fleer RC's in PSA 9 over the last few years, and they have doubled in value in that time, but that is probably the ceiling there as well.

    If you think spending $18,000 on a BGS graded 84 Fleer Clemens is a good investment, I have a bridge to sell you, too. image
    image
  • SDavidSDavid Posts: 1,584 ✭✭
    Sure, the card's PSA 10. But BGS 10? Wonder what you'd get on a crack and resubmit to BGS?

    Not arguing that point - I just thought the centering was okay. I've said before that the pristine grade in general was nonsense. I've submitted tons of cards to bgs, have received numerous 9.5's, but I've probably only received a 10 subgrade twice and both times were for centering.

    The first card that was mentioned in this thread was submitted for review in its holder and bumped from a 9.5 to a 10, and I know that's happened with a few of the other high profile 10's. Even if there really is a difference between 9.5 and 10 quality corners/edges/surface, there's no way a grader could recognize it when the card is in a bgs slab. Graders usually examine those factors from numerous angles, and that simply isn't possible when the card is encased in a thick plastic holder.

    I still use bgs a lot because I accepted a long time ago that a certain percentage of the grading game was basically bs with all companies, and that includes the grade assessment as well as the authentication process. Now I just use whichever grading company will get me the most cash for my cards. For me, it's fun, but I don't take the opinions I'm paying for nearly as seriously as I used to.
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have a question...
    Does anyone consider a card like this a good investment?

    mike >>



    For this to be a good investment - it has to be a $25,000 card in a few years. No freaking way. There are few, if any, cards I can think of in the last 20 years that have proven to be a 'good' investment.

    Marc
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • bri2327bri2327 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭
    You have to be completely bent, or recovering from a labotomy to pay over 10G for that card. I dont care if it is PERFECT, it will never be a good investment. And the centering is not pristine either.

    My father in law has exactly 100 84 fleer update sets that he purchased 20 years ago and had stored away. Last year we took the top 20 Clemens out of the lot and had them sent to PSA. We got one 7, seven 8's, eleven 9's, and one 10.........and there is no way that card is any better than the 10 we got, or any of the 9's for that matter.

    So what is my advice in the end.........marry a girl whose father was a card junkie too, that way she isnt surprised when she see's you spending 3/4 of your time and $$ on cards.
    "The other teams could make trouble for us if they win."
    -- Yogi Berra

    image
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,351 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have a question...

    Does anyone consider a card like this a good investment?

    mike >>


    Nothing like a rhetorical question to raise some blood pressure?

    image
    Mike
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭
    I think the condition sensitive '85 Donruss or '85 Fleer Clemens has better investment potential in "extremely high-grade" than the '84 Fleer. Although I really doubt either card will approach the 5 figure amount, I can see where there might a good ROI % compared to what they're currently priced.

  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    I saw this card at the nationals and spoke to the guy who sold it to the gentleman who was selling at the Nationals. Follow me? image

    It didn't meet reserve at $14k, was sold offline for $20k. The new owner was asking $25k at the nationals for it. Assuming this is still the only BGS 10 of this card, believe it or not, it started out as a BGS 9 and kept getting "friendly" half point bumps according to the original owner. I posted about this card right after nationals ended on the Beckettt and SCF boards, and I think I even posted it here. It was an interesting story.... From I was told by him, it had a 10 subgrade, and a 9.5 and 2 9's. He got one or two of the subgrades bumped to the 9.5 which got it up to a 9.5. IIRC, he originally had this card sold for around $8k but the buyer backed out (when it was a 9.5). Shortly before the nationals, at another show BGS was doing, it got it's final bump to a BGS 10. I believe while still in the holder.

    I would expect the bidding on ebay to reach 18-20k. But I am certain the reserve is going to be higher than that since I was told the current owner paid $20k (assuming it's the same guy from nationals and he didn't get his $25k pricetage yet)

  • ldfergldferg Posts: 6,739 ✭✭✭
    is this the one that started out listed at 18k and now it's reduced to 12k?


    Thanks,

    David (LD_Ferg)



    1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
  • JackWESQJackWESQ Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
    Yes. This card was originally priced for an initial bid of $18,000.00 and a BIN of $18,000.00.
    Now there is a $6,000.00 reduction in pricing? Desperation? Who knows. I live about 45 miles
    from Temecula. Maybe I should request to examine the card in person and maybe get the
    "story" behind this card. Regardless, I'm curious to see where this card ends at...assuming it
    receives any bids.

    /s/ JackWESQ
    image
  • One just sold on eBay for $5600

    Linky
  • ctsoxfanctsoxfan Posts: 6,246 ✭✭
    Funny, look who the seller was on that one!
    image
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