1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10
JackWESQ
Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
Dear Group,
Thanks for your input regarding the $10K for Bonds v. Mays. Now I see
this: A 1984 Fleer Roger Clemens BGS 10. Auction still has 8 days to go and
it already is over $10K with 23 bids. Here is the link:
1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10
Where do you think this will end at? I wouldn't be surprised if it were over
$20K. I hear what you say about over production, but wasn't the Fleer Update
set produced in limited numbers? And so, there aren't likely too many high
condition cards remaining out there that are not graded. Just my thoughts.
Funny thing about the auction, it's a decent picture of the card. However, it
could be a lot better.
/s/ JackWESQ
Thanks for your input regarding the $10K for Bonds v. Mays. Now I see
this: A 1984 Fleer Roger Clemens BGS 10. Auction still has 8 days to go and
it already is over $10K with 23 bids. Here is the link:
1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10
Where do you think this will end at? I wouldn't be surprised if it were over
$20K. I hear what you say about over production, but wasn't the Fleer Update
set produced in limited numbers? And so, there aren't likely too many high
condition cards remaining out there that are not graded. Just my thoughts.
Funny thing about the auction, it's a decent picture of the card. However, it
could be a lot better.
/s/ JackWESQ
0
Comments
coming out of those little flemsy box could hold a pristine grade. This applies to the 86 TT and 86 TT Tiffany. Gem mint maybe. I wouldn't be at all surprise if the Clemens card received a bit of help along the way before being holdered. As a buyer; no way I would spend that kind of money. As an investment, I don't see how you can recoup 20k back down the road. If I really wanted that card, I'd pick up a nice PSA 9 just to have in my collection if I were a Rocket fan. More power to the seller if he can fetch 20k. If any of us had this card, we'd sell it immediately as well and pick up stuff we'd want.
Dang, I went and did it anyway.
<< <i>Again, I agree w/jrdolan on this - but, I'll go one step further: I bet these transactions don't often occur at all, anyway. For example, the current high bidder "mayhemcheerios" has a FB rating of 11, and one of his latest purchases was an item for $5.99. The current bid is now over $12,000.00 for this card
Well, there have been rumblings for some time that astronomical bidding on certain BGS 9.5's and 10's is sometimes, uh, incestuous in nature ... that Beckett "field correspondents" sometimes happen to be the sellers or bidders in the auction. You know, as part of the whole market-manipulation conspiracy theory. I don't believe any of that nonsense, of course. None of the dealers in BMP would angage in anything like that. Any more than they would cooperate on their pricing within Becket Marketplace. Just rumblings by jealous folks who aren't on the inside, working the system. Ignore it.
Stingray
Next time, real bidders remember (or are told in the description) how high the bidding went last time. Beckett may even have gushed about it in the magazine, because a "field correspondent" reported the crazy bidding right on publication deadline. Next time, not so many low-feedback bidders with histories of buying $5.99 items are needed to kick the price up into the clouds.
Like the old movies with crappy special effects, sometimes you can almost see the strings.
was being sold by psaal. Now there is another auction for a 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10. Here is the link.
1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10
I didn't keep track or save the image of the first one, but the BGS population report indicates that there are two BGS
10s out there. So it's possible that this is a different card. In any case, with a starting bid and BIN price of $18,000.00,
I doubt there will be any bids. Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>So the first 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10 ended at $14,100.00 with the reserve not being met. That card
was being sold by psaal. Now there is another auction for a 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10. Here is the link.
1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens BGS 10
I didn't keep track or save the image of the first one, but the BGS population report indicates that there are two BGS
10s out there. So it's possible that this is a different card. In any case, with a starting bid and BIN price of $18,000.00,
I doubt there will be any bids. Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome.
/s/ JackWESQ >>
Wow, I didn't know that BGS 10 cards could have 60/40 centering -- wow!!!
<< <i>
Wow, I didn't know that BGS 10 cards could have 60/40 centering -- wow!!! >>
I believe my bgs 9.5 version of that card has better centering. Bgs 10's are pretty much a joke. Most likely given as a favor to high dollar bgs dealers.
Matt
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
<< <i>
Wow, I didn't know that BGS 10 cards could have 60/40 centering -- wow!!! >>
I believe my bgs 9.5 version of that card has better centering. Bgs 10's are pretty much a joke. Most likely given as a favor to high dollar bgs dealers.
Matt >>
This last point should be re-emphasized. Anybody here think that some $15 dollar an hour card jockey in the Beckett grading room is just allowed to slap this kind of grade on a card and take it from being a $100 piece of cardboard to a 20K piece? Give me a break. There is NO WAY that card comes back BGS 10 if any of us send it in.
In fact, I would like to know if anyone here-- and i know some guys here submit to Beckett, as I do occasionally-- have ever gotten a BGS 10 on a card that matters (i.e., not on a Fleer Metal card that's worth $3 as a BGS 9.5).
<< <i>Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome. >>
That card is a PSA 9 if any of us send it in to PSA, and BGS grading is a complete joke, and you better believe that comment about BGS 10's being given out only to high dollar supporters of the sham that is BGS. Anyone who thinks of spending $18,000 dollars on this card needs to have his head examined.
That's about it.
<< <i>
This last point should be re-emphasized. Anybody here think that some $15 dollar an hour card jockey in the Beckett grading room is just allowed to slap this kind of grade on a card and take it from being a $100 piece of cardboard to a 20K piece? Give me a break. There is NO WAY that card comes back BGS 10 if any of us send it in.
In fact, I would like to know if anyone here-- and i know some guys here submit to Beckett, as I do occasionally-- have ever gotten a BGS 10 on a card that matters (i.e., not on a Fleer Metal card that's worth $3 as a BGS 9.5). >>
I agree!
I have submitted to Beckett only about 10 times. I only recieved a few 9.5 and never a 10. Now in my humble opinion, judging from my subs to psa I believe I have a pretty good grading eye. This leads me to believe that alot of the high volume guys that deal in bgs cards on ebay are without a doubt given better treatment then the average joe who sends in a few subs. Just to name a few: psaal, bgsbrad, bgsgradedrookies always have tons of 10's. I really dont care much anymore. Bgs quality has gone down pretty far just in the past year. My focus has shifted to buying psa graded cards only. All my subs are to Psa as well.
Matt
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
<< <i>I have submitted 5 times to beckett and i have recieved 3 10's and quite a few 9.5's. I have been to enough shows to know that it is not who you now, but rather how many times you submit a card. I know the bigger modern card graders and they have just as much "bad luck" as the rest of us... but they will pay and try it to get it done over and over again spending huge sums of money re-grading. There is not too much difference between a 9.5 and a 10 so on a given day a card may be given either. From what i have seen there is not much preference given on grades, only better prices the more one submits. .. As for the clemens, i really do not think it is all that off center. I bet if you did a pixel count you would find that out. >>
My pixel count on T/B was 59/41. Come on, how can you objectively (or even philosophically) really distinguish between GEM MINT and PRISTINE?
I've only received 1 BGS 10 (2003 SP Authentic Jiri Hudler Auto RC). Have sent them about 400 cards total since their inception in 1999.
IMO, the pristine grade is a BS grade.
Does anyone consider a card like this a good investment?
mike
Talking just about the card itself - the 84 Update Clemens is probably one of the best modern day RC's to "invest" in, but even then, how much more upside can there possibly be here? I think, even when he goes off into the Hall in 5 or so years, this card will probably not be much more than it is today. I bought several of his 1985 Fleer RC's in PSA 9 over the last few years, and they have doubled in value in that time, but that is probably the ceiling there as well.
If you think spending $18,000 on a BGS graded 84 Fleer Clemens is a good investment, I have a bridge to sell you, too.
Not arguing that point - I just thought the centering was okay. I've said before that the pristine grade in general was nonsense. I've submitted tons of cards to bgs, have received numerous 9.5's, but I've probably only received a 10 subgrade twice and both times were for centering.
The first card that was mentioned in this thread was submitted for review in its holder and bumped from a 9.5 to a 10, and I know that's happened with a few of the other high profile 10's. Even if there really is a difference between 9.5 and 10 quality corners/edges/surface, there's no way a grader could recognize it when the card is in a bgs slab. Graders usually examine those factors from numerous angles, and that simply isn't possible when the card is encased in a thick plastic holder.
I still use bgs a lot because I accepted a long time ago that a certain percentage of the grading game was basically bs with all companies, and that includes the grade assessment as well as the authentication process. Now I just use whichever grading company will get me the most cash for my cards. For me, it's fun, but I don't take the opinions I'm paying for nearly as seriously as I used to.
<< <i>I have a question...
Does anyone consider a card like this a good investment?
mike >>
For this to be a good investment - it has to be a $25,000 card in a few years. No freaking way. There are few, if any, cards I can think of in the last 20 years that have proven to be a 'good' investment.
Marc
My father in law has exactly 100 84 fleer update sets that he purchased 20 years ago and had stored away. Last year we took the top 20 Clemens out of the lot and had them sent to PSA. We got one 7, seven 8's, eleven 9's, and one 10.........and there is no way that card is any better than the 10 we got, or any of the 9's for that matter.
So what is my advice in the end.........marry a girl whose father was a card junkie too, that way she isnt surprised when she see's you spending 3/4 of your time and $$ on cards.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>I have a question...
Does anyone consider a card like this a good investment?
mike >>
Nothing like a rhetorical question to raise some blood pressure?
It didn't meet reserve at $14k, was sold offline for $20k. The new owner was asking $25k at the nationals for it. Assuming this is still the only BGS 10 of this card, believe it or not, it started out as a BGS 9 and kept getting "friendly" half point bumps according to the original owner. I posted about this card right after nationals ended on the Beckettt and SCF boards, and I think I even posted it here. It was an interesting story.... From I was told by him, it had a 10 subgrade, and a 9.5 and 2 9's. He got one or two of the subgrades bumped to the 9.5 which got it up to a 9.5. IIRC, he originally had this card sold for around $8k but the buyer backed out (when it was a 9.5). Shortly before the nationals, at another show BGS was doing, it got it's final bump to a BGS 10. I believe while still in the holder.
I would expect the bidding on ebay to reach 18-20k. But I am certain the reserve is going to be higher than that since I was told the current owner paid $20k (assuming it's the same guy from nationals and he didn't get his $25k pricetage yet)
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David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Now there is a $6,000.00 reduction in pricing? Desperation? Who knows. I live about 45 miles
from Temecula. Maybe I should request to examine the card in person and maybe get the
"story" behind this card. Regardless, I'm curious to see where this card ends at...assuming it
receives any bids.
/s/ JackWESQ
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