any chance this card is not trimmed??

GoBravesGo

MorrellMan

yes

jrdolan

A very good chance. Whatever we might think of GAI's customer service and tendency to lose customers' submissions, they are actually decent graders and they don't deliberately slab valuable cards that are trimmed. A high-profile card like this wouldn't be a mistake, either. Trimming is the first thing they'd look for.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it came out of a PSA 9 holder as part an enticement to get a dealer to put a lot of GAI cards in his store / catalog.

stevek

GAI has started to "bother" me a little bit as far as trimming. A fair number of scans on ebay of GAI cards in my opinion "may" have been trimmed. I don't see that with PSA or SGC graded cards. Just my opinion. It would interesting to know if anyone submitted knowingly trimmed cards to GAI to see what would happen, like the study that was done with Pro Grading in which a collector submitted knowingly trimmed cards, and they all came back with grades from Pro. This trimming by Pro was documented on a website - I don't have the link.

Ruthfan

Here we go again. Opinions are like, well you know the rest. How in the hell can you state that you think GAI grades trimmed cards from SCANS? Can you really tell from a scan? How many of these cards have you ever held in your hands to make those statements? You really must be the owner of the grading company on Ebay that grades on a scan of a card rather than the card itself. In fact I think you should call PSA and see if you can get a job with them. It could be a new concept with them as they could send you scans of the cards and you could grade them from home. I bet GAI would be curious to know all of the slander that you are spewing on here.

baseballpa21

I think it's more of an opinion rather then slander... However PRO I must agree is the worst for accepting trimmed cards.

Stone193

I have to say that GAI and Mike Baker who used to be with PSA - IMO, they can be trusted. GAI is not Gem, Pro or "Grade this!", etc. - they are in the grading business for the long haul - I respect them as much as any of the top grading companies. Anything else, at this point is all heresay - I have heard they are "dealer friendly" - unless someone comes on with concrete proof - then every grading company may be dealer friendly for all I know - until there's concrete proof - I have trust.

mike

edit: that's one hell of a nice card!

stevek

<<< Here we go again. Opinions are like, well you know the rest. How in the hell can you state that you think GAI grades trimmed cards from SCANS? Can you really tell from a scan? How many of these cards have you ever held in your hands to make those statements? You really must be the owner of the grading company on Ebay that grades on a scan of a card rather than the card itself. In fact I think you should call PSA and see if you can get a job with them. It could be a new concept with them as they could send you scans of the cards and you could grade them from home. I bet GAI would be curious to know all of the slander that you are spewing on here. >>>

Yea and who are you...GAI's marketing rep? - LOL. My "opinion" about GAI has been shared by other people as well, and I strongly implied that there should be proof of this in the form of documentation before designating this as a fact. So learn to fully comprehend a post before spewing off at the mouth with asinine comments about slander.

Also - my comments were strictly on topic for the thread sharing my opinion about "any chance this card is not trimmed?

Steve

Stone193

Just to clarify

I think what has heated this discussion is the wording by GoBraves - he didn't ask if there is a chance the card was trimmed - he was almost ascerting that the card is trimmed by the question?

That's pretty strong stuff.

Steve
Asking if someone thinks there's a possibility that a card is trimmed is a valid query IMO - heck, anything can get by a grader....I would hope not - especially on a more expensive card. That's entirely different than a potentially "loaded question" - if I am making sense here?

mike

zef204

BTW

stevek

<<< Steve
Asking if someone thinks there's a possibility that a card is trimmed is a valid query IMO - heck, anything can get by a grader....I would hope not - especially on a more expensive card. That's entirely different than a potentially "loaded question" - if I am making sense here?

mike >>>

Mike - I don't remember a single one of your posts, unless when there was intentional humor involved, that didn't make good sense

I understand your point about one particular slab versus my comment about a grading company in general. I look at thousands of scans per week on ebay, and to me I don't see PSA and SGC cards as being trimmed. I see a number of GAI cards that look suspect in my view. Not on every card such as Pro, but enough of the time to notice a pattern. Even a "good" company can go awry and start making mistakes - sometimes unintentionally, and sometimes intentionally to fuel their profits. I don't have all the answers Mike - just my opinion based on my observations and over forty years of collecting baseball cards.

Steve

Stingray

I agree with you Mike. The original question should have been worded different. I do not think that this thread was intended to slander GAI, just solicite opinions. Lighten up Francis (Quote from the movie Stripes).

Stingray

Ruthfan

Steve, no I am no GAI's marketing rep, but I do have several GAI cards as wells as many PSA cards in my collection and for you to go off and say that you think that most of them are trimmed because you looked at a scan pisses me off. I want to see your proof before you spew off from the mouth. You stated that you think they are trimmed by just looking at the scan, show me proof. Who are the others on here that have the impecable ability such as yourself to tell that the masses of GAI graded cards are trimmed just by looking at the scans. I sure wish I had the expertise in grading scans of cards like you do. Do you have a special computer at home that can take these scans and turn them where you can see the borders on each side to veriry that they are trimmed or they just all look short to you? You talk alot for someone speculating.

zef204

Francis

<< <i>Lighten up Francis (Quote from the movie Stripes). >>

Lighten up

Stingray

Nice clips, funny stuff!


Stingray

Stone193

<< <i>A fair number of scans on ebay of GAI cards in my opinion >>


Steve's quote



<< <i>and say that you think that most of them are trimmed >>


Ruthfan's quote

This is how unnecessary arguments occur.

I would agree with Ruthfan, that if someone totally indicted GAI as a poor grading company - opinion notwithstanding - would be grossly unfair. And, that would disappoint me.

That's not what Steve said. And, Steve is entitled to his opinion that he has seen a good handful that are suspect. And yes, you can use pixel count since the holder would be the "known" size as a benchmark to check the size of a card I believe. I have never done it but it sounds reasonable.

mike

Stone193

<< <i>Francis

<< <i>Lighten up Francis (Quote from the movie Stripes). >>

Lighten up >>

ajw

What about these? I have a hunch they were trimmed.



Here's a legit one for comparison. Close call, but I'm going with "trimmed."

Stingray

Yes, but the issue here is telling if one in a graded holder has been trimmed.

Stingray

baseballpa21

Anyone ever had one sent to PSA that they claimed evidence of trimming and the card came from a pack you opened?

EagleEyeKid

That's a nice card with it's original rough cut edges.

baseballpa21

eagle eye
dont you know smoking can kill you?

doncherry

Why Ruthfan is a big fan of GAI


The GAI bump of course

DaBigHurt

I think it's important to realize that if you feel a card is trimmed, it's usually trimmed, if that card is in a holder OTHER than PSA. GAI, SGC, BGS and the others are incapable of determining whether or not a card is trimmed. The trained and certified experts at PSA have access to special calipers and measurement tolls that can give them insight on whether or not a card is trimmed. The others do not. It's that simple. So in the future, remember, trust PSA and PSA only. Don't bother dicking around with those other so called grading companies. Thank you.

ajw

<< <i>I think it's important to realize that if you feel a card is trimmed, it's usually trimmed, if that card is in a holder OTHER than PSA. GAI, SGC, BGS and the others are incapable of determining whether or not a card is trimmed. The trained and certified experts at PSA have access to special calipers and measurement tolls that can give them insight on whether or not a card is trimmed. The others do not. It's that simple. So in the future, remember, trust PSA and PSA only. Don't bother dicking around with those other so called grading companies. Thank you. >>



Best.
Post.
Ever.

Stone193

<< <i>PSA have access to special calipers and measurement tolls that can give them insight on whether or not a card is trimmed. >>


This is true - suspect cards are run thru their SEM (scanning electron microscope) Division to determine at the molecular level, the exact size of the card!



Nothing is left to chance - the specialists will scan the surface - looking for imperfections and even the "hint" of coloring or addition of paper particulate matter!



Next time you're passing thru - ask for the special tour.

WinPitcher

I agree with Bryan (eagleeye) when i looked at that card this morning I too noticed the wavy cut. I thought it was a scan prob or it was original and rough cut.


and I had yet to smoke.


steve d

Ruthfan

Cherry, why wasn't this quote highlighted? "It's also funny to see how many people are so wrapped up in PSA and that can't take it when someone criticizes something about PSA. A few of these people hate everything about GAI and their grading but I could probably bet they they own some PSA cards that were graded by Mike Baker when he was at PSA and that they would defend those grades until the end. "

DaBigHurt, You are the man. If everyone followed your philosophy it would be a perfect world. HA! HA!

doncherry

<< <i>Cherry, why wasn't this quote highlighted? "It's also funny to see how many people are so wrapped up in PSA and that can't take it when someone criticizes something about PSA. A few of these people hate everything about GAI and their grading but I could probably bet they they own some PSA cards that were graded by Mike Baker when he was at PSA and that they would defend those grades until the end. "

DaBigHurt, You are the man. If everyone followed your philosophy it would be a perfect world. HA! HA! >>



I'm not a fan of Baker and Rocchi's work when they were running PSA either . I just felt a need to help the newbies see why you are such a fan of GAI

eddiev

Here is the link for the Expirement with PRO Grading


----------------------------------------

My Ebay Auctions

iamthegreatcornholio

<< <i> SEM (scanning electron microscope) Division to determine at the molecular level, the exact size of the card! >>



Mike, remember this thread - one of the greatest ever!

the "other" PSA

My favorite quote:



<< <i>
1600x enlargement makes the image they view approximatly 333 feet wide by 466 feet high (that's about the hieght of most 30 story buildings, as a frame of reference) >>

stevek

Thanks doncherry for that link in which the post from Ruthfan is listed below. It all eventually comes out in the wash doesn't it Ruthfan? While this post has nothing to do with trimmed cards, because PSA probably would have graded it, your own post here does show that PSA has higher grading standards than GAI. Looks like you just lost your job as the GAI marketing rep - LOL.


Ruthfan post:
I submitted a 1952 Topps Duke Snider for walkthrough grading at the National and would only have it holdered if it would grade at least a PSA 8. They would not holder the card. I thought sure the card would grade at least PSA 8 and I was completely overwhelmed when they would not holder it. I asked PSA for clarification on why they would not holder it at an 8 grade and the lady took the card back to the grader for him to look at it. She came back and said the grader told her because two of the corners on the card had a faint trace of fraying under magnification. The other corners were sharp under magnification. Under PSA's grading standards this card still should have qaulified for PSA 8.

Here is PSA's grading standards taken from their website:

"A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance. But upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: A very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse."

Well, what really made me angry is when I went over to the Superior booth and had them bring me the 1952 Topps Duke Snider graded PSA 8 that they were auctioning and compared the two there was not comparison. My card was much nicer than the one that they holdered. I looked at the Superior card under my 10x magnified loop and couldn't believe what I saw. All of the cards corners showed fraying and it still holdered at an 8. In my opinion the card should rest in a PSA 7 holder and I would not have been happy if I was the high bidder on it in the auction. Any other person at the show could have looked at the two cards in raw form and would have said mine was the better card.

Well, I immediately took the card as well as a 1956 Topps Mantle that PSA had earlier graded an 8 and gave them to Mike Baker at GAI to look at. The 1952 Topps Snider is now the first ever graded 8 by GAI and Mike told me that it was a solid 8 and he had no idea why PSA would not holder it at an 8. By the way, they also looked at the 1956 Mantle and it now rests in a GAI 8.5 holder. He told me it was really nice.

I just wish if PSA is going to publish their grading standards, they should grade their cards by it.

Todd

stevek

Thanks eddiev - that was the link I was thinking of.

Ruthfan

Cornholio, thanks for the old thread. Stevek, does that bring up some memorys? By the way shouldn't you be on the hunt for scans of those PSA cards with the earlier serial numbers so you can see if they are trimmed?

Stone193

Brian
Those were some fun threads! It's all very interesting when we take a cube of cardboard and give it to Mr. Wizard to play with!



Mr. Wizard: "can you explain thermomolecular hydroelectrodynamoeconomogeronimo physics?"
"I could....but I would rather explain how PSA derives it's grades for you Johnny" "Wowww, Mr. Wizard,
that would be keen!!!"

stevek

Hey Ruthfan look - I call 'em as I see 'em. That's what the forum is all about. Actually I couldn't care less about PSA, SGC or GAI as companies - only to the extent that they provide a service to me of authenticating cards and giving their opinion on grades. One company has to be the best. Right now it is and it has been PSA - if PSA ever starts to faulter, I'll be one of the first in line to blast them. And by "blast them" that doesn't mean anyone should be a cry baby because PSA wouldn't give out the grade they wanted at a show.

I remember my first submission to PSA - cards that I could have swore would have been 9's - came back mostly 7's and some 6's - but I didn't fully understand grading then and I did develop a respect for PSA for being tough. I actually liked that. But good old GAI did give you the grade you wanted, so at the show you were buddies and seems like you still are - and nothing wrong with that. I'm not looking to bury GAI yet, but just want to be cautious based on observation because if you understand history, specifically history of companies, then you know that things change and if I see the possibility of something changing for the worst I'm gonna point out that possibility. And if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong - I sure ain't right all the time, just most of the time

But at least you're not a hypocrite in that you did state that you also own PSA cards. So we'll continue to voice our opinions about things and let the chips fall where they may.

Steve

ctsoxfan

<< <i>Why Ruthfan is a big fan of GAI


The GAI bump of course >>




Wow - that's getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar, isn't it?

GoBravesGo

Ruthfan; here is the definition of slander *( SLANDER - A false defamation (expressed in spoken words or gestures) which injures the character or reputation of the person defamed.)

I think the term you were wanting to use was Libel; *(LIBEL is a written defamation. This defamation must meet three conditions: 1) The material is defamatory either on its face; 2) The defamatory statement is about someone who is identifiable to one or more persons; and, 3) The material must be distributed to someone other than the offended party; i.e. published;
Also, generally, radio and television broadcasts that are defamatory are considered to be libel, rather than slander. )

There are three main types of defense for a supposedly defamatory remark:
* what you said was true;
* you had a duty to provide information;
* you were expressing an opinion.

I hope this helps you future understanding of things.

jad22

How often does PSA deem cards trimmed that are pack fresh. I am sure that older cards are going to have some tolerances and are not going to be perfect. How can they tell the difference between that and somebody who is very good at cutting cards, unlike a OJ type cutter?

QCBroker

QCBroker

Very tough to tell from a scan. This is just an opinion on this particular card. Lately, PSA and GAI have been hammering the 53' series for not having a rough cut along the bottom. FROM THE SCAN it looks like this card has a nice cut to it(No rough edge). Secondly, the top to bottom of the card does not look like it would measure out. I have a few 53's right now that measure near 3 3/4". If the card is not near that figure I would question the card. Sometimes you can just look at a card from a particular year and know there is something wrong with it.

Global has the graders that is for sure. But their customer service is severely lacking. I am waiting on a small order that was sent in May 24th.

Good luck!