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Grades posted for modern regrade guarantee, yeah right!
cointime
Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭✭✭
What's the chance of sending 5 coins in for regrade guarantee and all 5 coins coming back the same grade? Answer 100% 
I was hoping to get one coin in the correct grade and a couple shots at upgrades for my registry sets.
Well, Just saw my grades posted a few days ago and I just don't agree. These 5 coins were sent in the holders and all 5 came back the same grade.
I would wager that if I had cracked them out I may have gotten 2 or 3 come back the same grade but not all. It may not be worth much but here is my opinion.
#1 It is in an older (not rattler #4846575) holder with the green label insert and with the scratches on the cheek I think it is at best a MS66 if not a 65 by todays standards.
#2 This coin (was in a slab with the blue insert #21339280) I sent in raw close to a year ago and has a few light marks but has the luster and eye appeal of a coin minted yesterday. I was happy with the MS66 grade then and felt the luster put it in that grade.
#3 This coin (was in a slab with the blue insert #5713398) I purchased on E-bay. It has some haze on the high points (Obv. & Rev.) like some coins found in mint sets stored for many years luster on the medium scale. It is a coin with die polish marks abound front and back and it looks IMO a MS67 except for the rim at about 1 o'clock has a slide mark maybe from not being fully struck due to the blank being bad or what ever. Probably minus 1 point so the MS66 would be justified.
#4 This coin (was in a slab with the blue insert #2828049) was purchased from Keith Dagen. He noted it was purchased by him from Jim Barlow and it was in his opinion to be worthy of a higher grade and some day it would be in a 67 holder. I paid (I'm sure most of you know what I mean) a little premium for this coin and when I received it I was very pleased with the strike, luster and very clean fields. This coin you could tell came from a mint set and was not an average MS66 coin. It does have some slight die polish marks, yet not as pronounced as #3 above. I truly thought this was a shot at 67 and included the other 2 coins as examples or setup coins to be included as reference to this one. This coin is in my type set and will stay there in a 66 holder because I like it much better than the other 2.
#5 This was my last coin and in an older rattler holder that after I purchased it from E-bay I sent it in to be reholdered cert# 2142014. Later I noticed it had toned really nicely on the reverse being in this not too air tight older holder. This coin's Obv. is really mark free and the reverse only has a very light mark on the bottom of the Liberty Bell. I thought it maybe a shot at 68 and would give it a try. I'm not really upset it didn't make it in a 68 holder just surprised.
Bottom line: I just do not believe these coins had a good look. I sent them in and checked marked "other" and wrote "regrade guarantee" then marked on the invoice and then highlighted it in blue "*Regrade Guarantee* Modern Up or Down". These coins were all graded at different times maybe over a span of 3 years or longer and they all came back in the same grades submitted. I truely feel that if cracked out what you see below would not be the case. This is just my honest opinion nothing more. Take a look at my scans below and draw your own thoughts.
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 21993229 1982 10C No P USA MS67
2 21993230 1976-D $1 Type 2 USA MS66
3 21993231 1976-D $1 Type 2 USA MS66
4 21993232 1976-D $1 Type 2 USA MS66
5 21993233 1976-S S$1 Silver USA MS67
Date Received: 05/24/2005
Date Shipped: No Date Specified
Warning: Both pictures are about 2Mb.
Obverse group picture
Reverse group picture
I was hoping to get one coin in the correct grade and a couple shots at upgrades for my registry sets.Well, Just saw my grades posted a few days ago and I just don't agree. These 5 coins were sent in the holders and all 5 came back the same grade.
I would wager that if I had cracked them out I may have gotten 2 or 3 come back the same grade but not all. It may not be worth much but here is my opinion.
#1 It is in an older (not rattler #4846575) holder with the green label insert and with the scratches on the cheek I think it is at best a MS66 if not a 65 by todays standards.
#2 This coin (was in a slab with the blue insert #21339280) I sent in raw close to a year ago and has a few light marks but has the luster and eye appeal of a coin minted yesterday. I was happy with the MS66 grade then and felt the luster put it in that grade.
#3 This coin (was in a slab with the blue insert #5713398) I purchased on E-bay. It has some haze on the high points (Obv. & Rev.) like some coins found in mint sets stored for many years luster on the medium scale. It is a coin with die polish marks abound front and back and it looks IMO a MS67 except for the rim at about 1 o'clock has a slide mark maybe from not being fully struck due to the blank being bad or what ever. Probably minus 1 point so the MS66 would be justified.
#4 This coin (was in a slab with the blue insert #2828049) was purchased from Keith Dagen. He noted it was purchased by him from Jim Barlow and it was in his opinion to be worthy of a higher grade and some day it would be in a 67 holder. I paid (I'm sure most of you know what I mean) a little premium for this coin and when I received it I was very pleased with the strike, luster and very clean fields. This coin you could tell came from a mint set and was not an average MS66 coin. It does have some slight die polish marks, yet not as pronounced as #3 above. I truly thought this was a shot at 67 and included the other 2 coins as examples or setup coins to be included as reference to this one. This coin is in my type set and will stay there in a 66 holder because I like it much better than the other 2.
#5 This was my last coin and in an older rattler holder that after I purchased it from E-bay I sent it in to be reholdered cert# 2142014. Later I noticed it had toned really nicely on the reverse being in this not too air tight older holder. This coin's Obv. is really mark free and the reverse only has a very light mark on the bottom of the Liberty Bell. I thought it maybe a shot at 68 and would give it a try. I'm not really upset it didn't make it in a 68 holder just surprised.
Bottom line: I just do not believe these coins had a good look. I sent them in and checked marked "other" and wrote "regrade guarantee" then marked on the invoice and then highlighted it in blue "*Regrade Guarantee* Modern Up or Down". These coins were all graded at different times maybe over a span of 3 years or longer and they all came back in the same grades submitted. I truely feel that if cracked out what you see below would not be the case. This is just my honest opinion nothing more. Take a look at my scans below and draw your own thoughts.
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 21993229 1982 10C No P USA MS67
2 21993230 1976-D $1 Type 2 USA MS66
3 21993231 1976-D $1 Type 2 USA MS66
4 21993232 1976-D $1 Type 2 USA MS66
5 21993233 1976-S S$1 Silver USA MS67
Date Received: 05/24/2005
Date Shipped: No Date Specified
Warning: Both pictures are about 2Mb.
Obverse group picture
Reverse group picture
0
Comments
Regarding the dime - "todays standards" as far as I know relates to the bands issue and what is required to obtain an "FB" designation, not the grade component. Moreover, by their very nature, 1982 NO P Roosies tend to look "bad" as compared to other dates in the series in the same grade. They are not full of luster and appeal like, say, a 1999(p) Roosie in MS67 would be. Sounds like a perfect coin to offer for sale at this point?
Regarding the best 76(d) Ike - let's face it, PCGS is very stingy in giving out the MS67 grade level to Ike dollars and has consistenty been that way for years. The fellows you mentioned in the history of the coin are no "beginners" either when it comes to knowledge of Ikes and obviously at one point or another they too elected to sell this coin instead of "work it" a few more times for the upgrade. But, in the future, why not simply submit a coin like this raw - that way, you know for sure it was closely looked when it comes back MS66 again, and again, and again!
Regarding the 76(s) Silver Ike - the mark is in a focal area unfortunately, but, it sounds like this is the coin of the (2) coins in your (5) coin batch that had a decent shot of upgrading. The upgrade is worth around $300. $14 to grade it. Assuming you feel the coin has a 50-50 shot of working, you still have around (9) submissions left to make it and "beat the odds" the way I see it. Just one observation - I have noticed that PCGS is a bit more comfortable assigning the MS68 grade to silver Ikes that are truly fully brilliant as opposed to slightly toned. GOOD LUCK WITH THIS ONE.
Wondercoin
<< <i>What's the chance of sending 5 coins in for regrade guarantee and all 5 coins coming back the same grade? >>
Ken, I'm unclear as to precisely which re-submission option you used.
There is a "Regrade" option for coins the submitter thinks should grade higher and a "Downgrade Resubmission" option for coins the submitter thinks should grade lower. If you were looking for both up-grades and down-grades, that couldn't be correctly/properly done under the same re-submission tier.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Great feed back and this is what I was looking for. Those are pretty much my same thoughts
The dime will most likely be sent to Heritage for auction. The Ikes I feel like giving the #3 a quick dip. I know I really do not like to see any haze on my coins and most others feel the same way. The #4 Ike I am going to crack as well and submit with #3 in my next modern batch and see what happens. As for the Silver Ike I was not aware of this being a focal area and will enjoy the coin just as it is
Mark,
I will admit that there are plenty of things I can learn. I do have to disagree with your statement based on the Q&A forum. Just run a search there and you will find many answers from David Hall like this one.
<< <i>If you send in a coin for regrade and it gets a lower grade, the verifier will check out the coin and confer with another grader if the coin truly is a lower grade. In that case, we'll turn it into a guarantee resubmission and pay you accordingly for the downgrade. If the coin is a liner that really could make sense in the original grade, we'll reholder the coin in the original grade. The point is that whatever happens during the regrade process, there is no risk to you. For the life of me, I cannot understand why more people do not use the regrade service instead of gambling on crack-outs. >>
What ever someone marks on their invoice it would appear that PCGS looks at your coins and then they do the right thing
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
I know that there are some cases (such as ACG or PCI or SEGS coins) that it is wiser to crack out because there is a bias (justified or not is not something I want to debate here).
I usually buy only PCGS, NGC or ANACS coins. I have received the few "other" grading service slabbed coins I have or have had when buying numerous coins together in lots (take them all or leave them).
The following are not statistically valid samples but simply reflects my experience with submissions to PCGS.
- NGC - 10 sent in their holder and 5 received the hateful DNC (Did not cross).
- ACG - 10 coins in RAW. 4 come back as cleaned, damaged or something else. 4 at one grade lower and 2 at the same grade they had in the old holder.
- PCI - 2 sent in and both received the same grade.
- SEGS - 1 sent in and returned with the same grade.
As far as re grading is concerned out of about 40 PCGS coins I have sent in for re grading (generally old holders and "rattlers"), 10 have come back 1 grade higher and 1 has come back 2 grades higher the remainder stayed the same.The following were broken out and submitted RAW.
OTH when you buy from a dealer (regardless of the pre-sales hype about a coin being a candidate for upgrading) if that dealer knows what he is doing he certainly won't give me a coin he could make more money on by re grading it. DEealers are in business to make money and as long as they don't rip people off they are entitled to the profits they make.
Grading is really subjective just as beauty is.
As far as some high value coins (Morgans such as the 1884-S, 1896-O, 1901-P, 1895-O, 1889-CC, etc ) are concerned, I get the impression that the severity used for grading is a notch or two higher than is the case for 1904-O or 1921-P Morgans. There are probably a lot of issues involved in grading high level coins and David Hall clearly said that PCGS tries to stand behind its products.
I wonder if there are any disgruntled investors around that bought ugly coins with high grade numbers that have filed suit when they found that nobody wanted their technically graded MS6X's.
After all, if the majority of us didn't think highly of PCGS I bet we would not all be posting our remarks on this forum.
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.
And, based upon the choices on PCGS's very own submission invoices, the reality is, that there is one type of submission ("Regrade) that is supposed to be used if you think a coin is under-graded, and another ("Downgrade resubmission) if you think a coin should be down-graded. If you improperly shoot for both up-grades and down-grades on the same invoice, the odds against you are even greater than they otherwise would be.
<< <i>Mark there is no down grade choice on the form only Grading, Regrade and Crossover >>
Craig, there was on the invoice I looked at/consulted before I made my posts.
Also, for illustration purposes, I have copied the information/options below from the on-line PCGS invoice printing options - see the area I have highlighted near the bottom:
B. SERVICE LEVEL: (Choose only one per submission form)
Show Express (2-3 hours) $200/coin
Coin Show $100/coin
5 Day Super Express $50/coin
15 Day Regular Service (min 5 coins) $30/coin
Economy (min 5 coins)(Non-gold coins valued at $300 or less) Current Estimated Turnaround Time $18/coin
U.S. Modern and World Modern coins(1965 to present - Do Not Mix U.S. coins with World Coins)(min 5 coins). $14/coin
Bullion Gold (min 20 coins) $20/coin
Small Gold (min 10 coins) $25/coin
World Rarities $75/coin
World Coin (max value $5,000) $40/coin
World Economy (min 5 coins) (Valued at $300 or less) $18/coin
Mint Errors $40/coin
Mint Error Economy (Error coins valued at $300 or less) $18/coin
Special Issues $40/coin
Downgrade Resubmission $25/coin
Bulk $_______
Reholder/Show Reholder $5/$10/coin
Reholder (PCGS MS70 & PR70 Graded Coins Only) $20/coin
Other________________________________ $____/coin
I think what you're showing us is a form used by dealers. Could this be our disconnect here? I'm sure your right, but for us small time collectors, we use a different form that does not include "Bulk"
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set