Hypothetical #18 - Counterfeit in a slab

MrEureka

Suppose you're a dealer and you own a very deceptive counterfeit. Even though you know it's fake, you submit it to NGC and they authenticate it. You then sell it to another dealer. The buyer thinks it's undergraded, cracks it, and sends it to PCGS. PCGS calls it fake. Upon closer inspection, he realizes that PCGS is correct. He goes to NGC for a refund and NGC refuses. (The coin's now raw and they honestly don't remember having graded it.) So now the buyer brings the coin back to you and wants you to refund the money. You try to get the guy to go to NGC but he explains that that's a dead end. Are you obligated to give a refund? If not, why?

Longacre

I would refund the money, but then again, I don't think an honest dealer would try to slip a coin he knows is fake through NGC or PCGS.

mgoodm3

Did you know it was a counterfeit?

JrGMan2004

<< <i>Did you know it was a counterfeit? >>

Makes a difference... if I did not know, I don't feel I'm at fault... if I did know, I'd refund the money...

MrEureka

Did you know it was a counterfeit?

Yes. I'll clarify that.

ss350camaro

Since the dealer knew it was counterfeit i would demand my money back. If he refused i would report him to the authorities for selling the counterfeit .

morgannut2

Anyone see what those counterfeit Morgan small O's have been bringing (even damaged) at Heritage? Wow. This I'm sure has happened, and it's the same as if the coin was lightly wiped or has a staple mark or whatever. The coin was bought with a guarantee from NGC/PCGS and the buyer threw it away. Tough luck.

RKKay

Andy: Cut to the chase. Did you give the guy his money back?

mgoodm3

Well, since you have proven that you are an unethical dealer by sending in a known couterfiet for grading and then sell it as real, you probably won't refund the money although you should.

MrEureka

Well, since you have proven that you are an unethical dealer by sending in a known couterfiet for grading and then sell it as real, you probably won't refund the money although you should.

Good point. I'll change "Do you give a refund?" to "Are you obligated to give a refund?" Thanks.

Cockney

No, No refund. If you were expert enougth to crack it out, you should be expert enougth to suffer the consequences

jcping

If I know the coin is no good, then I either won't sell it or will disclose all I know before transaction is closed (sell as is).
In this case, I won't refund it since why buyer wants to crack it out? If buyer is greedy, he/she has to live with it

construct

Yes, I am obligated to refund. This is the one instance in all these hypotheticals so far of the seller knowing that his coin is counterfeit. This is the point where the law against knowingly selling a counterfeit as genuine kicks in. It is criminal, and I should do what I can to keep my buyer satisfied enough so that he won't call the cops.

Julian

Refund, and don't do that any more, Andy.

MrEureka

Refund, and don't do that any more, Andy

Smittys

<< <i>Refund, and don't do that any more, Andy. >>

michael

yes

Gator5220

No, the sole purpose for the dealer to crack it was greed. Karma.

mozin

Absolutely no need to give a refund, except to clear you conscience. One the coin is cracked out it has lost its value.

It is not believable that someone would crack an NGC coin and to submit to PCGS for a higher grade. My real question is why the dealer did not have fun with the NGC encapsulated counterfeit. Lots of us really enjoy putting down the grading services.

Coin Finder

Yes refund refund. No question. You lied from the very beginning.

Tbig

Coin Finder

Yes refund refund. No question. You lied from the very beginning.

Tbig

CalGold

This one's easy. Refund. Dealer is a crook or at least a scoundrel for selling it in the first place.

CG

MrEureka

This is the point where the law against knowingly selling a counterfeit as genuine kicks in.

Makes sense to me.

Interesting how the opinions vary so much even on this one.

291fifth

Once the coin was cracked out any obligation you had ended. It isn't the same item you sold him. What you sold him had a valid authenticity guarantee. When he cracked the coin he essentially threw the guarantee away.

Newmismatist

<< <i>you know it's fake >>

Cha-Ching - You lose - money gets refunded

Edited to add: there's a big IF here: If the selling dealer refuses a refund, the Buyer would have to PROVE that the selling dealer KNEW it was fake - that might not be as easy as you think - Here's how the selling dealer might answer that question on a witness stand: "Well, I wasn't sure (if it was a fake) so I submitted it to NGC and they said it was real - THey grade thousands of coins and are much more expert than I am" Another issue that would show up is whether the coin that was being returned was the same coin as was sold - - That becomes who do you believe: IE Selling dealer - well I'm not sure that that's the same that I sold - and the final problem - the purchasing dealer "Changed" the characteristics of the coin - Dealer A sold a "Slabbed" coin -Dealer B tries to return a Raw coin - the ultimate Does dealer B get his money back may depend on whether that change to the what was sold (a slabbed coin) is the sine qua non of the transaction. So while hypothetical the above is the correct answer IF it can be proved that DEALER A knowing sold a fake coin, in real life it may well have a very different result - You hardly ever get anyone to admit that they knowingly tried to defraud someone - it happens, but with the same frequency as a larger meteorite striking the earth and wiping out the dinasours.

ddink

If you knew the coin was fake and tried to slip it by, then you lied to the buyer, which makes your ethical obligation clear. Not that the type of person who would do such a thing would consider themselves bound to do the right thing, of course.

PerryHall

If the dealer knew it was fake why didn't he just send it back to NGC and let them buy it back from him? It would have saved him a lot of trouble.

Merch

Woulda, shoulda, coulda......Woulda lied from the start, shoulda told the consumer, coulda got busted. Refund........If I was such an assh*le to sell a known counterfeit to someone, then I probably would have retired long before this incodent with all the money I made off of unsuspecting consumers.

"Absolutely no need to give a refund, except to clear you conscience. One the coin is cracked out it has lost its value"

Maybe he was told by the dealer that it would be worth crossing over.....regardless it should get the same grade if not 1 or 2 points less by resubmitting. Just because it made it through once, doesnt make it a legit coin. (Unless you are the type of person that beleives "if you just keep telling yourself that, then it must be true") in which case I am surprised you were intelligent enough to respond to this thread. It is not beleivable that you would not give a refund!!!!......and isnt a conscience what makes us ....ummmmm.... not do illegal things that deminish the decorum of others!!!


"No, No refund. If you were expert enougth to crack it out, you should be expert enougth to suffer the consequences"

All I have to say here is that your posting name fits you well.....If you were assh*le enough to sell a fraudulent coin then you can handle your assh*le getting enough in jail. I bet a 5 year old could crack a coin out of one of those cases, and you would think he was a coin genious.........lmao. Maybe Richard Chranium would be a better name for you.

Usually I am a nice guy, but when people treat other people with no respect, even "hypothetically" thats what I give them. Of course I would refund the money, along with providing the proper coin it should have been......shame on me!

Merch

<< <i>Once the coin was cracked out any obligation you had ended. It isn't the same item you sold him. What you sold him had a valid authenticity guarantee. When he cracked the coin he essentially threw the guarantee away. >>



LMAO....are you serious? As a seller dont you have any obligation to the buyer to not RIP HIM OFF??? Answer this for me, If you were a crook, and took a couple thousand dollars from an unsuspecting person, then got caught.......would you "If I just keep telling myself I didnt do it, then I didnt do it" or be a man ( I know it, manhood was thrown away with the purse the money was in, or at least the "guarantee" you will be a man) and give it back and admit you did something wrong. I think we all know what you will say here... One more thing, if you are a retailer, or affil;iated with any orginization at all, please tell me the name of it so I can stay AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE!!!! Thank you very much.

Man its amazing how young kids figure out computers so fast! isnt it!

sinin1

I would be reluctant to refund

I sold a coin in a NGC slab -

counterfeit? says who?

MrEureka

ttt

seatedcoins

<< <i>Once the coin was cracked out any obligation you had ended. It isn't the same item you sold him. What you sold him had a valid authenticity guarantee. When he cracked the coin he essentially threw the guarantee away. >>

DJCoinz

Is this a hypothetical question? If this actually happened why would you send in a coin that you knew to be fake and then pawn it off to an unsuspecting buyer when you lucked out?

Colquhoun

Refund, go straight to jail and don't stop on go. Bad Dealer, Bad.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Yes, a refund would be the right thing to do.

howards

Is the original seller an ANA member? I believe the ANA Code of Ethics requires him to make good on a counterfeit.

In fantasy world: The right thing to do ethically is to refund the money.

In the real world: The right thing to do ethically is not to sell the counterfeit in the first place w/o full disclosure. So, we already know the seller has no ethics. In a court case I believe the buyer would lose because he voided his return policy (and eliminated any possibility of proving that the coin he bought was the same coin as the coin in question) when he cracked it.

Bad dealer. Stupid buyer. Can you think of a worse combination?