Muted luster equals low mint state grade?

veryfine

Ok coin people, how does luster affects the grade of a mint state coin? It seems simple when described technically by the grading services, but there are some gray areas that need some clarification.

If a coin has almost no marks, an excellent strike but muted luster, what is the highest grade possible that coin can attain?
I have seen coins encapsulated as ms-65 or higher with medium to heavy toning. The luster is there, but it is much more subtle than a fully brilliant specimen of the same date. Toning can be beautiful, accentuating the luster in glowing colors, but all too often, it dulls the swirling light that bounces off a coin.

Take, the 1912-s Liberty nickel, for example. Many of them have a brownish gray color without much vibrance to speak of. Yet, I see them in ms-64 or higher holders. So, does luster as a grading factor pertain to a specific coin and its unique characteristics or is it a universal standard?

Russ

For most series, and given your criteria of almost no marks and excellent strike, luster doesn't become a critical factor until you get above MS66. Up to that point, dulled or muted luster may be somewhat forgiven. At MS67 and above, it becomes extremely important.

Russ, NCNE

magikbilly

I used to collect decent MS Libery 5C abt 18 years ago or so. I recall it was very hard to find examples with really dancing luster - but many were 64 and 65.


Billy

ebaytrader

Here's an example of how luster impacts the grade. This coin, a 1928 Peace $ was over dipped. It's in a MS62 holder. If it still retained its original mint luster, it would be a lock '64. The way to increase the value of a coin like this is to add color to it. To sum it up; white coins are punished much more severly than toned coins are for lack of luster and in this case cost it 2 grade points.

F117ASR

Exactly what russel said (well for moderns anyway)

Fairlaneman

<< <i>For most series, and given your criteria of almost no marks and excellent strike, luster doesn't become a critical factor until you get above MS66. Up to that point, dulled or muted luster may be somewhat forgiven. At MS67 and above, it becomes extremely important.

Russ, NCNE >>



Hey Russ you better check out some Merc Dimes to see if this statement is true or not....

The question answer for Merc Dimes. This answer is for PCGS graded coins. NGC is somewhat different with their standard and ANACS is a little all over the place with Mercs.

Muted luster on a merc that is mark free and with a real decent strike will leave the coin at MS63 almost all of the time. Luster and slide marks/hairlines are the killer for high grades in this series. 64's and 65's usually have about the same looking luster but a 64 will show some slide marks where a 65will be almost slide mark free. 66's have much better luster and if a 65 and 66 are put side by side the difference is apparent even for a blind guy like me. 67's usually have booming luster or the coin is totally original and not messed with in anyway. 68's Hmmm...don't know because I never look at them.

62's/61's/60's I never look at because I know the dime will have problems.

Ken

Russ

<< <i>Hey Russ you better check out some Merc Dimes to see if this statement is true or not.... >>



Perhaps you missed "for most series". What applies to Morgans or Franklins or Washingtons doesn't necessarily apply to smaller coins like Mercs where surface preservation is not as evident in the six or seven seconds alloted to grading.

Russ, NCNE

tradedollarnut

A gem seated/trade dollar will always have outstanding luster at PCGS unless the coin is semi or fully prooflike. Muted luster usually means MS62 or 63 max in those series.

matteproof

For me, lustre matters much towards the final grade. Coins with very dull lustre are simply not ms65 or higher to my eye. To my taste, a mark free coin that might grade ms67 with lustre, would not grade more than ms64 without it. Now, I'm talking about truly flat, very poor luster. If a coin has "some" lustre, or average luster, then a 65 grade is possible but 67 and above without luster just does not work for me.

Toned coins without luster would also grade the same way. Toned coins need luster even more than non-toned ones for the color to be really vibrant. For me, toned coins devoid of luster do not rise to the gem level either. matteproof

Fairlaneman

<< <i>

<< <i>Hey Russ you better check out some Merc Dimes to see if this statement is true or not.... >>



Perhaps you missed "for most series". What applies to Morgans or Franklins or Washingtons doesn't necessarily apply to smaller coins like Mercs where surface preservation is not as evident in the six or seven seconds alloted to grading.

Russ, NCNE >>




Huh ?????? Since when ?

Okay, I guess I'm old wave and have not caught up with the new wave grading. Hmmmm....

Ken

veryfine

I can see that my questions have an interesting variety of answers. So far, I gather that excellent luster is necessary for a coin to get a very high grade. Toning is the tricky part of the equation. Many original, untampered coins of a certain age mellow to a softer glow. The color of a nickel or silver coin might have an overall gray or light gold color with some cartwheel effect. They are not unnattractive, but at the same time, lack a flashy mint bloom. What about mint state brown copper coins? I notice the descriptions refer to them as "glossy brown",however, that's a far cry from its original radiant luster. So, if luster is so important on higher grades, how can you have an ms-66 brown? Can an ms-66 brown have what is often described as superior luster?

BowTieCoins

I will only comment where Lincoln's are concerned. Once I recieved 9 1948-s back from pcgs 4-ms67 5-ms66 as i was looking over the coins I noticed on of the ms 67 with a bag mark on the rev that bothered me a little, still all other aspects were in order. Then as i sized up one of the ms66 coins. Every thing looked perfect for a ms67. All these coins were well struck in early die state and very free of contact marks. They all had a satin type luster and all were bright. But when laid out all together the ms67 coins were clearly a bit brighter and I believe the only factor in holding back 2-3 of the ms66 coins.
At ms66 Luster still needs to be strong, but at seven it should be high end.