can signed checks be forged?
duner
Posts: 625 ✭
I was curious if anybody knew the probability of counterfeiting cashed checks. My intuition is that it wouldn't be prevalent b/c it would be so much easier to to just forge an 8x10...which would also sell for more. But at the same time, i wondered if checks from the early 80's had watermarks etc. that were inherently counterfeit deterrent? I've been looking for a Pete Maravich auto for a long time, but photos are so scarce and expensive i've decided i'll likely settle on a check. There's one in the mastro auction i'll likely go after, but i noticed one on ebay and i'd bet it's going to sell for far less than the mastro one. any thoughts?
Maravich Auto
Maravich Auto
Duner a.k.a. THE LSUConnMan
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
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<< <i>I was curious if anybody knew the probability of counterfeiting cashed checks. My intuition is that it wouldn't be prevalent b/c it would be so much easier to to just forge an 8x10...which would also sell for more. But at the same time, i wondered if checks from the early 80's had watermarks etc. that were inherently counterfeit deterrent? I've been looking for a Pete Maravich auto for a long time, but photos are so scarce and expensive i've decided i'll likely settle on a check. There's one in the mastro auction i'll likely go after, but i noticed one on ebay and i'd bet it's going to sell for far less than the mastro one. any thoughts?
Maravich Auto >>
Hi Duner,
been so dead here I haven't felt like posting - but I plan to make another bulk posting of great material. To your question:
As you know I specialize in vintage theatre and Hollywood, and not in sports. In that realm, I have seen forged many Judy Garland checks. They are easy to spot as they are mostly on the same account and by the same hand in the same ink, usually out of London. The sig is pretty good but to thick. However, most checks are authentic but this is NOT a rule. Some celebs are insistent about signing their own chesks - like Lou Costello (he did not sign much else). As you know most collectors prefer signed checks and documents due to the decreased likelihood/perception of forgery - but it is not removed all together. Some , like Sinatra, used secretarys relentlesly, training then to sign properly in his style - like Brando. As far as the subject of your search - Pete Maravich - I have him listed for around $125 for a SIG and $300 for a signed photo. Signed memorabilia seems to go for up to $900. I give a link here - Maravich R&R Auction results 1996-2004 - to my eye checks seem to bring the most consistent value. From what I could see there and in my books, the eBay check looks fine, although not on what is apparently his usual yellow check. This gives me pause, bit multiple accounts are common. The sig and all appear fine from the scans and exemplars I was able to utilize - from the scans is is authentic. However, after looking at the R&R page, I would feel I could find another example. The check is a good item - better to me than an SP in a lot of ways. If you feel you won't see another example for a long time go for it. Lou Costello cheks are always available, as are Garland checks. Not common, but always around. It is a matter of frequency and desire.
Hope this helps in some way - let me know.
Best wishes and good luck should you bid,
Billy
I just wanted to add that I only was able to find so many exemplars of the Maravich sig in my quick serach to help you out - so my commets are from the scans I saw today and, although I feel it is authentic, I must say that from scans there is always the risk of error. Of course, it has a LOA from his wife and the seller seems legit. It is returnable? Just wanted to clarify - I am no expert in Maravich's sig. That said, I bet you feel it is quite authentic as well? I was examing the entire check and the numerals - not just the signature. Looks fine - what say you?
Best and let me know what you think,
Billy
thanks for the info....i sure wish i could find a pistol pete auto for the prices you listed. I've never seen anything legitimate of his for less than $400, and photos are in the 1k range. I never thought about secretarials on a check...but i'd be willing to bet that his wife has signed several back in the day. I guess you just have to roll the dice sometimes.
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
you checked out the R&R link? Why not just register with them and wait a while. The prices are good there, and a good lot is PSA/DNA if that matters to you. Do you plan to bid on that check? Do you agree re authenticity? Have you seen a lot of non-yellow checks from that period? All I saw were yellow checks from a joint account. How many exemplars do you have for comparison? The images at R&R can be blown up - they are a good reource when looking for PSA exemplars in a pinch. Richard Simon out of New York has some sports stuff - if Mr. Maravich is no longer alive Simon may have one or be able to find one - he does not sell autographs of living/modern celebs as they are all too often forged.
Best,
Billy
as for the checks...i've only seen 5 or 6 examples. Maravich died young of a heart attack back in 87 before the nba was popular so his autos demand a premium unrivaled by other stars. but i have seen at least one green check before.
i like how the rr auction has a psa/dna letter...but from my experience psa auction house coa's are terrible. typically there's no way to match the item to the coa, so anyone can just switch out item.
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
<< <i>Magicbilly, I did that right after i posted...i'm all over the maravich check. I've never even heard of that auction house. thanks for the info...hopefully i'll get lucky.
as for the checks...i've only seen 5 or 6 examples. Maravich died young of a heart attack back in 87 before the nba was popular so his autos demand a premium unrivaled by other stars. but i have seen at least one green check before.
i like how the rr auction has a psa/dna letter...but from my experience psa auction house coa's are terrible. typically there's no way to match the item to the coa, so anyone can just switch out item. >>
True, PSA lot certs and such can be confusing. I don't have to have PSA certs but if something has it when I am buying and it is unclear I just get them on the phone. Grad/Spence are still connected to Mastronet and/or Rotman for example (at least last time I had to deal with them) as "experts". When I won my Garland signed candid from Rotman Auctions on eBay (for $68 instead of $680) it was advertised with a PSA/DNA full cert. I recieved a standard photocopied lot cert that did not "cover" my Garland and was issued by Mastronet originally. I called Rotman, I called PSA, and I called Mastronet. No one would say "yes, we authenticated this item". Bear in mind I called them each before the auction ended as well and received full assurance from each. Finally, I just sent PSA the webpages that show those experts were interconnected (at least at the time) and that no matter how you sliced it, or who was representing who when, PSA did authenticate the item and eventually I got them to say "yes, this is authentic", they wanted me to resubmit and pay a fee - and suggested it might be fake if I did not LOL. It is the only authentic candid I have ever seen
I am glad you are on that check. Looks great and you seem to agree. Please do keep an eye on R&R - prices can be VERY good. Look at the items I just sent you. Give them a call and ask to be on the catalog list. Maybe they can locate what you seek? There are many other similar auction sites. Most are UACC etc, but choose carefully. I have seen bad stuff in the most unlikely places
Best,
Billy
I found this online for you:
Maravich PSA Check $488
I guess you are going to try and get the check on eBay?
Best,
Billy
I'm going to stay away from the ebay one b/c it's a temporary check...i forgot that was the reason i didn't buy the last one that popped up, b/c the green checks are all the temporary kind that banks send you before your personalized ones have been made...but the wait is getting frustrating since the maravich auto is only LSU signature i'm missing for my collection.
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
Above the Clutter Autographed Memorabilia
krainikp@yahoo.com
Phone (908) 342-1632
5 Wakefield Drive
Hackettstown, NJ 07840
USA
also:
Pete Maravich-signed checks: [L=SweetSpotNews]http://www.sweetspotnews.com">http://www.sweetspotnews.com/MM017.ASP?pageno=53[/l
Pete Maravich jerseys and basketballs were blockbuster items in Grey Flannel Auctions' recent sale. The auction company now is selling numerous personal checks signed by the floptop basketball legend. They come from his widow, Jackie Maravich. "Collectors have scrambled to find his signature on just about anything, paying upwards of $1,000 for generic cuts with questionable authenticity signed 'Pistol Pete' only," said Richard Russek, president of Grey Flannel Auctions. Grey Flannel is selling the signed checks for $775. The items come with a signed letter of authenticity from Maravich's widow. For more information call (516) 466-5533, ext. 222.
And, here is a signed cut "Pistol Pete" with PSA/DNA papers, along with several other items orelated to him and his career:
Pete Maravich Autograph
Authentic Cut Signature
PSA/DNA Certified #B94202
Great item for framing!
Our Price with shipping*: $968.
Duner, I DO NOT know these people - just found them online while looking for you - I am sure you can tell the good from the bad.
Best,
Billy
PS - Heriate had one a while ago:
[L=Heritage Maravich Auction]http://www.heritagesportscollectibles.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=45031&Lot_No=12253&src=pr">Maravich Signed Cut "Pistol Pete" PSA/DNA
<< <i>Magicbilly, I did that right after i posted...i'm all over the maravich check. I've never even heard of that auction house. thanks for the info...hopefully i'll get lucky.
as for the checks...i've only seen 5 or 6 examples. Maravich died young of a heart attack back in 87 before the nba was popular so his autos demand a premium unrivaled by other stars. but i have seen at least one green check before.
i like how the rr auction has a psa/dna letter...but from my experience psa auction house coa's are terrible. typically there's no way to match the item to the coa, so anyone can just switch out item. >>
Hi Duner,
well, I'd suggest keeping the scans of the 15 or so at R&R and the others I posted - I am guessing you did this already. Always good to have as many as possible - and checks are good because they are dated as well, which helps assign dates ro cuts.
Best and keep mre updates on your search. have you tried the UACC Registered dealer listings - many dealers list what they specialize in. A few phone calls and you might have one for a good price!
Best,
Billy
Well I won the RR auction. I definitely didn't steal it....once buyer's premium/insurance/shipping/etc. is attached, i definitely paid a slight premium. But it was still definitely a lower price than i would've paid through one of the major sports auction houses. One thing is for sure, i'll never spend that much money on a check again...or likely any other autograph. But now I only need one more LSU signature for my wall, and fortunately Bob Pettit still lives around here and goes to most of the basketball games. So the mission should be complete before next season is over.
Thanks for the help.
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
Best,
Billy
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
<< <i>billy, i forgot to ask. i didn't notice until after the auction ended, but how does grading of checks work...it says it's in "fine" condition, is that ok? also there's a vertical crease....does that matter? thanks >>
Thats a fine question
Condition
Most items in this catalog are described as being "in fine condition." What this means is that the item has no flaws that we would consider serious. Think of this as a "3" on a scale of 1 to 5.
1 would be described as good
2 is very good
3 is fine
4 is very fine
5 is excellent
Billy
RR terms link and grading etc