PRO Scammer

williplett

The below correspondence is between me and the guy that sales PRO cards and throws in a random PSA card just so he can use PSA in his header. I like when he plays dumb on the trimming, he obviously knows about PSA adn that the card would be worth a ton more in one of their slabs. Some well meaning newbie will take it in the shorts no doubt.


You asked:
"Hello, is that Jordan rookie trimmed? If I crack it out of the PRO holder and send it to PSA and they say it has been trimmed, will you refund my money? Please advise. Thanks!"

i dontknow what you mean trimmed but anyway all sales are final.so if youy think something is wrong better not to bid.thanks

rw2win

let me guess...t-2inc

jrdolan

<< <i>i dontknow what you mean trimmed but anyway all sales are final. >>

Stone193

"I don't know what you mean trimmed?"

Lothar52

There is a simple way to avoid this problem....DONT BUY PRO CARDS.....

loth

OSClabs

Use the word "castrated" instead of "trimmed"?

cybrbrdr

Here is rumination from an old-timer in card collecting, who recently rejoined the hobby,
amazed at the changes in attitudes of collectors, dealers. This is more of a whimsical
query than an opinion.

Has anyone actually asked PRO what their policy IS on trimmed or altered cards? Their
somewhat limited website doesn't go into any detail on this. Is it their policy NOT to
grade trimmed cards? Or, do they knowingly and willingly grade them as any other card?

There ARE buyers for trimmed cards. I have bought a few, knowing they were trimmed.
In the old days, young 'uns, trimmed cards were not quite relegated to the same evil
status that they presently hold. Untrimmed cards were preferable, but those cards which
were slightly trimmed quite often had almost as much demand, as long as they weren't savagely
butchered. But then, that was the day in which cards were mainly collected for the sake of
collecting, and not for the monetary or market value. A few collectors still hold these same
motivations in their collecting. This doesn't make them right or wrong, it's just that they think
of the hobby differently than others. Collecting cards with a keen eye to value standards
certainly makes as much sense as collecting to satisfy nostalgia and for simple love of the hobby.

Back to PRO Grading... if their policy is to NOT grade trimmed cards, and they grade them anyway,
then they are deceptive. If they have no policy on this, and if grading trimmed cards IS within their
standards, then they certainly have committed no crime or deception. If this is the case, it would
certainly appear that they would make some careful explanation of this on their website or
submission materials. But they do not, apparently.

If PRO grades trimmed cards as a practice, so be it. I would prefer to see "trimmed" or "Altered"
on the holder, but that is just me. If PRO openly and honestly (I doubt) includes altered or trimmed
cards in their grading, they are only guilty of working against the tide of convention. However....

Here's the real problem: an unsuspecting novice pays good money for something that doesn't hold
the monetary exchange value that he thought he was getting. That is deception, in my opinion.
IF, on the other hand, PRO wishes to reach that tiny percentile who are still willing to buy a card
even if it is slighly trimmed, for purposes of love and affection, adoption and tenderness....well,
guess what? That crowd abhors lucite. That crowd thinks of vintage BB cards as art. Would they
encase a slightly damaged Van Gogh in a plastic laminate? Of course not.

Case in point, regardless of PRO's intention, even if it is noble (I doubt), they are lost in a categorical
ethics quandary.

Stone193

cybrbrdr



<< <i>Has anyone actually asked PRO what their policy IS on trimmed or altered cards? >>



Good question - and here is their policy:

PRO will not grade cards which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. In the vent PRO rejects any card for grading, the fee paid by the customer for the services WILL NOT be refunded because the determination to rejects a card will require a review by PRO's grading experts.

This can be found in paragraph 2 of the submission form of the company under the heading of Pro Terms and Procedures.

mike

MorrellMan

<< <i>....which bear evidence of trimming.... >>



I've said it before and I'll say it again: this only pertains to when the trimming has been clearly done by a bear.


Edited to add: BTW cyberbarber - I'm about as old as old timers get, and there was never a time when trimmed cards were acceptable. I don't know who you're talking to, but I don't believe you've been handed the gospel on this one.

Stone193

<< <i>

<< <i>....which bear evidence of trimming.... >>



I've said it before and I'll say it again: this only pertains to when the trimming has been clearly done by a bear.


Edited to add: BTW cyberbarber - I'm about as old as old timers get, and there was never a time when trimmed cards were acceptable. I don't know who you're talking to, but I don't believe you've been handed the gospel on this one. >>


Mark
I am in agreement - trimming from experience has always been anthema to any other form of alteration like recoloring, paper repair etc.

mike

jrdolan

PRO's disclaimer on the Web site and their actual practice are completely different. Ask anyone who has bought a PRO-graded card and cracked it out for submission to PSA. The disclaimer is there only to give them deniability and to cover their ass. In reality, the cards they put into holders and dub 9's and 10's are almost exclusively trimmed.

PRO is the grader of last resort for people who can't get a card slabbed by any reputable service. First, one or more of the Big Three are tried. Then onto Beckett. If through some accidental fluke of decent standards THEY also reject it as trimmed, the next step is PRO. This is common knowledge among all in the hobby except newbies and those who have no use for grading. Sadly, some dealers actually incorporate trimmed cards (and PRO's willingness to grade them) into their business plan.

cybrbrdr

Moral Man,
With Due Respect, perhaps we are both creatures of our own environment. I'll give you
the benefit of the doubt. But where I was, at one time in my life, up until about 45 years
ago, it was common and accepted to own a few cards that we, or our friends, may have prudently
whittled down a bit. And, to trade such cards, and to own them with little sense of remorse.
These might have been 1952-56 cards trimmed down to 1957 + size. We thought little of it.
None of us went to jail over it.

I have several collector friends in my hometown now who will jump on a lightly trimmed card for
their collection, if it looks decent. No, they don't intend to sell it, nor do they care what it is worth.
A buddy bought a nice 53 Topps J. Robinson, which was a little short, for $30. Looks OK in his collection.
So, apparently there are those who actually find these "acceptable", as we speak, right now.

I firmly believe that hobby is wide enough and broad enough for EVERYBODY. We may not all choose the
same direction. A few individualists here and there won't hurt a bit.

And trust me, I didn't get this "gospel", from anyone. I been there myself. You see, some of us don't really give
a damn what the modern conventional wisdom is. For this too shall pass.

MorrellMan

<< <i>None of us went to jail over it. >>



Good place to brag about that, on a graded card message board.

You're right though: different strokes for different folks, although I must have missed the "Due Respect" you referred to in your post.


Edited to add: Here is rumination from an old-timer in card collecting, who recently rejoined the hobby,
Since you referred to yourself here in the third person, I thought you were recounting someone else's observation, thus my "gospel" statement. I certainly would have read your post differently had you been a bit more clear that these were actually your observations.

jrdolan

Speaking as one who collected in the days before graded cards, I can say I was quite dismayed to learn that a fair number of my precious raw cards were rejected for "evid. trimming" when I made my first submissions. I was devastated to discover, for example, that a sweet 1953 Bowman Mantle/Berra/Bauer that I bought in the mid-1980s turned out to be trimmed. I now have a box with a couple dozen "problem" cards like that, and god knows how many trimmed commons I unwittingly sold in bulk lots to local collectors and to Kit Young before I tried to grade my stars.

Some people may have been "prudently whittling down" their cards for their own pleasure, as cybrbrdr says, but others were doing it to screw people who didn't have the eye to detect it in those days, like me.

cdchanger

Obviously, the issue is not about trimmed v. original. It is about disclosure. If somebody does not care if a card is original, then they are getting a good deal when they buy a card that they "like" AND that they know is altered. The concept of graded cards is not only about buying cards that we "like;" it is about increasing the probablilty that the card will hold its value and be accepted later by a third party of like interest.

Clearly, most of the undisclosed altered cards being sold - raw or slabbed by pretend graders - in online auctions are being offered with an element of deceit that would void any contract of sale. In civil law such a transaction is "unfair," and in criminal law it can be "theft by deception." In natural law, such sales are THEFT and STEALING --- pure and simple.

This hobby and many others are slowly being ruined by scamsters. The greatest winners of this destruction are the online aution sites and the financial outfits that facilitate payment transfers on fraud-based sales. I eagerly await the first civil case being brought and maintained against a big site whose only defense is, "We were only providing a venue for the fraud and we were only facilitating the money transfer to complete the fraud through our merchant-banking arm." Such litigation will come sooner than later.

I say: "Prosecute the scamster-sellers and the huge corporations that make such frauds possible."

cher

stevek

<<< The below correspondence is between me and the guy that sales PRO cards and throws in a random PSA card just so he can use PSA in his header. I like when he plays dumb on the trimming, he obviously knows about PSA adn that the card would be worth a ton more in one of their slabs. Some well meaning newbie will take it in the shorts no doubt. >>>

You got it exactly right.

mudflap02

There was a great thread a couple of days ago with a link to PRO "experiment". I'm too lazy to search right now, but if someone could pull it up I think it would shed some light on the situation for our new old member.

Welcome to the boards.

Stone193

Cybr
I think your reference to an "age" of alteration/trimming is going back to when you were kids? And based on the cards you are talking about - that was way before the "hobby explosion" that has formalized more or less how we treat and store our collectibles.

By the 1980's most all cards handled by kids and adults were being placed in collectible cardboard boxes or into binders. By the early 90's the graded industry changed everything forever.

So, I get the idea that you and Mark (aka Morrell), who BTW is a really super guy, are kind of talking past each other. I can see what you mean now - I recently had a discussion about exactly what you reference.

As the market demand for vintage increases - the supply will diminish - so later down the road - 20 yrs? - there may be a demand for cards stamped "authentic" with no grade or even see a grade attached with the qualifier of "altered"/trimmed/recolored e.g. on the holder.

mike

iamthegreatcornholio

Here ya go: BruceMo's experiment

I got a good laugh at those grading standards. I'm no lawyer, but I would think the fact that they're nothing more than a front for misrepresenting "butchered" cards, and who'll whore out their “services” for anyone who waves a buck in front of them should be enough for RICO? I've always wondered why no class action suits?

It’s already been said, but I agree - if a card is trimmed and disclosed I see nothing wrong. Obviously, there’d be a big price drop, but who here wouldn’t jump on a card they otherwise couldn’t afford? The problem of course is the card most likely wouldn’t end up in a collector’s hand, but the fat, greasy hand of one of these scammers.


Brian

iamthegreatcornholio

And for anyone who disagrees with my last statement - check this out:

Buyer:
1
2
3

Seller:
1
2
3

Just 3 of countless cases of an honest dealer selling, and a jackass buying to resell without disclosing the trim job.

Brian

goudeygold

I just emailed this thread link to the winning bidder on the trim jobs. I will never buy anything from nomar. I've seen him here and there on ebay, but what a jack-off. thousands of feedbacks, 99.3%, and an obvious scam artist.

GG

goudeygold

read Nomars feedback. the original seller that disclosed the trimmed cards actually gave nomar 3 neutrals for reselling without disclosing the trimming.

GG

1bbnerd

<< <i>Obviously, the issue is not about trimmed v. original. It is about disclosure. If somebody does not care if a card is original, then they are getting a good deal when they buy a card that they "like" AND that they know is altered. The concept of graded cards is not only about buying cards that we "like;" it is about increasing the probablilty that the card will hold its value and be accepted later by a third party of like interest.

Clearly, most of the undisclosed altered cards being sold - raw or slabbed by pretend graders - in online auctions are being offered with an element of deceit that would void any contract of sale. In civil law such a transaction is "unfair," and in criminal law it can be "theft by deception." In natural law, such sales are THEFT and STEALING --- pure and simple.

This hobby and many others are slowly being ruined by scamsters. The greatest winners of this destruction are the online aution sites and the financial outfits that facilitate payment transfers on fraud-based sales. I eagerly await the first civil case being brought and maintained against a big site whose only defense is, "We were only providing a venue for the fraud and we were only facilitating the money transfer to complete the fraud through our merchant-banking arm." Such litigation will come sooner than later.

I say: "Prosecute the scamster-sellers and the huge corporations that make such frauds possible."

cher >>



I completely agree with the above. If there are grading companies who grade these trimmed/re-sized cards, then there should be some disclosure and then there wouldn't be any issues. I too fell into this exact same issue over a '54 Topps Aaron which was being peddled as a PSA crossover candidate. Now, granted I didn't know about the PRO graded cards being know for their grading known trimmed cards until after the fact and I made an offer to purchase on the premise that I was buying an investment and would get the card graded by PSA. I should have asked all the questions prior to my offer, and it is my fault for not doing the proper research and questioning before jumping the gun. Well, now that I received the card, the truth is exposed.

I looked at the card closely and my mind was telling me that it definitely looks trimmed, but when I measured it I couldn't detect the trimming. I figured I better go compare it to other '54 Topps cards. I went to a very reputable dealer, who looked at the card and commented on how eye appealing the card was he then pulled a common card out and laid it on the counter where I took my Machinists rule and measured the card top/bottom and side/side. Comparing the two cards, the Aaron was obviously resized smaller by about 1/32" all around. The dealer then pointed out that the card edges look differently cut as if maybe by a laser or other precision cutting tool. So, sure enough the card was smaller, and centered better by altering the entire card.

I truely believe the seller knew this card was trimmed and was trying to rip off some unspecting buyer. The seller's id is icloseyou123 and he never answered any of my emails after I made the offer, so the writting was on the wall and I was scammed. Now, i'm in the dipute process and I am pretty confident I will be getting my money back, if not from PayPal, then from my CC co. I realized how much of a scumbag this seller was after 3 of my emails went unanswered and his negative feedback towards me was posted: WARNING, BUYER IS TRYING TO BUY GRADED CARDS AND SWITCH WITH BAD ONES, FOR REFUN

What a big liar this scamming seller is. You can see that he's been caught redhanded, as I had no intentions of cracking the PRO case and take my chances. If anything, I would have sent the card to PSA in the holder, for crossover grading (which would be futile as the card is measurably smaller all around) and PSA has minimum sizing grade standards that clearly would not have been met and the card returned in the original holder. Anyway, so I decide to post my negative feedback to him and expose him for what he is:

FRAUD! CARD ALTERED-SMALLER OVERALL-CANNOT XOVER 2 PSA-SELLER KNEW-UNTRUSTABLE!

I'm am very grateful that this forum exists and with the help, knowledge and experience of everyone here, I believe this makes for a more enjoyable card collecting hobby. I also believe that with these very informative threads that we can help spread the knowledge and experiences to others and try to put a stop to these rip-off, fraudulent sellers.

Kenley Fritts
1bbnerd
Ebay ID: 1nerdboy

Axtell

<< <i>

I firmly believe that hobby is wide enough and broad enough for EVERYBODY. We may not all choose the
same direction. A few individualists here and there won't hurt a bit.

And trust me, I didn't get this "gospel", from anyone. I been there myself. You see, some of us don't really give
a damn what the modern conventional wisdom is. For this too shall pass. >>



There is a tremendous difference between collecting a trimmed card for your own personal collection and endorsing a grading company whose apparent business plan is to holder altered cards to get over on less knowledgable collectors.

Companies like this (and dealers/submitters who 'specialize' in altered cards) do just one thing for the hobby: they hurt it.

You may think that it's ok for people to collect altered cards, and you're right. But when those altered cards are then being sold as legitimite collectibles, that's where the problem is.

And a few 'individualists'? You mean a few people out to screw over everyone else? The modern 'conventional' wisdom is (and always has been) that if a piece of art is being sold as 'genuine', it sure as hell better be unaltered. It would be the same as a painting being recolored or whatever other analogy you feel most comfortable using.

If you are going to try to screw over someone else, don't do it in the name of 'well it doesn't hurt anyone'.

iamthegreatcornholio

<< <i>I just emailed this thread link to the winning bidder on the trim jobs. I will never buy anything from nomar. I've seen him here and there on ebay, but what a jack-off. thousands of feedbacks, 99.3%, and an obvious scam artist.

GG >>



Yeah, I've seen this guy too. I recently ran into a bunch of cards that he titled PSA 9 and listed the SMR for a 9NQ, when the cards he was selling were 8OC cards! That's like selling a 7 and claiming it's a 10...

His feedback appears okay on the surface, but check out the number that were "withdrawn". He's averaging close to 4 removed feedbacks a month! That'll make you think twice about how great of an idea feedback removal was.

Brian

williplett

I e-mailed Nomar and flat out asked him about buying cards he knows are trimmed and selling them without disclosing them. I looked back on his recent purchases. He buys a bunch of OC and trimmed garbage then relists it with a real dishonest spin. Like was said, he doesn't disclose the OC in the title and cites SMR and pop reports for NQ cards. Some times he lists the wrong grade altogether.

You will also see that he was robbed a grade on every NQ card he sells. His 7's should have been 8's, etc.

What a scum bag.

jrdolan

.
Sorry ... claiming to be robbed a grade by PRO just strikes me as funny

1bbnerd

I think we as hobbyist and collectors need to do something about this. I want to send a letter to Pro Grading and other companies who grade trimmed cards to change their process. This is so damaging to the hobby, and collectors, and would-be collectors that it is sickening. This sort of thing is perputating and feeding the scumbag sellers/dealers who end up ripping off the unsuspecting buyers. I think that Beckett and other card collecting magazines should remove their advertising for Pro until they decide to change their grading process. I can't be the only one who feels this should not keep going on while everyone looks the other way!?

Boopotts

"I want to send a letter to Pro Grading and other companies who grade trimmed cards to change their process."


Well, that ought to do it.

Seriously, this issue isn't going anywhere. Rogue card graders are here to stay-- if it's not PRO then it will be a bunch of guys grading cards in their basement. What I don't understand about this is how so many knowedgable collectors can get so bunged up about an issue that really doesn't affect them. Is anyone here buying PRO cards? No. Is anyone here submitting to PRO? Again, no (or at least I hope not). The PRO issue is on par with rigged carnival games on the midway at the county fair, or 3-Card Monty in NYC. It's just another low-grade con that will be impossible to extract from our culture. As such, the best you can do is educate yourself (and others) and move on. There's ZERO percentage in getting your blood pressure up over it.

Stone193

I agree with Boo in a sense that these guys probably border on sociopathic behavior and could care less about their reputation - only care about the bank balance.

Writing Pro, Gem, Capitol, Nasa or PSG e.g., would be like writing David Berkowitz and explaining to him the value of a human life. They just don't get it.

About a year ago, we got all excited about doing something about the problems on ebay - I even wrote a congressman - ya wind up getting some "standard" letter telling you about how they are working on this on capitol hill - blah, blah, and more bullblah....

mike

cybrbrdr

Thanks to all who replied to my post. Thanks especially to stone 193 for sending the link to PRO's submission
form. I agree that there is a great deal of ambiguity between what they say and what they actually do.
If I was a slabophile, I would certainly avoid them.

During the early to mid 1950's many little boys took the scissors to their Topps cards. These were kids
who were big on uniformity. The didn't mind a crease or two on a card, never cared what the corners looked like,
and didn't know what centering was. What we didn't like was the fact that our Bowman cards were differently
sized than the Topps. We normally put them in team groups, different years all together,wrapped with rubber bands.
The two sizes was really tacky. I don't know if this was a regional thing where I lived, or what, but that's what all
my gang did. So they whacked off a slice of the Topps cards. Problem solved. Innocent after-market improvements.
Thankfully, there were kids who kept their cards intact, as well, although those were likely the same kids who
played tennis instead of baseball.

Those who sell an altered card as original are scammers. But trimmed cards are reflective of the nature of
a golden era. They are part of the hobby's history and heritage. And they deserve a place in the hobby, if there is
a market for them. Which there is, and likely will continue to be.

lostdart58

<< <i>Thanks to all who replied to my post. Thanks especially to stone 193 for sending the link to PRO's submission
form. I agree that there is a great deal of ambiguity between what they say and what they actually do.
If I was a slabophile, I would certainly avoid them.

During the early to mid 1950's many little boys took the scissors to their Topps cards. These were kids
who were big on uniformity. The didn't mind a crease or two on a card, never cared what the corners looked like,
and didn't know what centering was. What we didn't like was the fact that our Bowman cards were differently
sized than the Topps. We normally put them in team groups, different years all together,wrapped with rubber bands.
The two sizes was really tacky. I don't know if this was a regional thing where I lived, or what, but that's what all
my gang did. So they whacked off a slice of the Topps cards. Problem solved. Innocent after-market improvements.
Thankfully, there were kids who kept their cards intact, as well, although those were likely the same kids who
played tennis instead of baseball.

Those who sell an altered card as original are scammers. But trimmed cards are reflective of the nature of
a golden era. They are part of the hobby's history and heritage. And they deserve a place in the hobby, if there is
a market for them. Which there is, and likely will continue to be. >>



As I have stated numorous times on these message boards I own one PRO graded card. It is a 1959 #10 Mantle graded 8.5. It is a Beautiful card, but is is TRIMMED!! Do I care that it is trimmed? NO.............but I would like PRO to admit that they will grade trimmed cards. I have emailed PRO many times asking them if they grade trimmed cards.......I have never recieved an answer

iamthegreatcornholio

I ran across this in my searches - an awesome trimmed card Link
I was going to snipe it for 175, but too many people share my taste and don't mind the trimming.

More food for thought, the prime candidates for cards to be altered are probably PSA 5-7's as higher aren't worth it and lower may suffer serious defects. I wonder if this will significantly affect the value of these "collector" grade cards years later since no other grades of cards are being significantly wiped out of existence.

Brian

MorrellMan

Correct me if I'm wrong (for I, too, had a '56 or 2 in my collection that were just too darned big) - a "trimmed" card is trimmed to deceive; an oversized card (Bowmans, early Topps) cut down to fit the 2.5" x 3.5" standard size is not "trimmed" but, rather, clearly hacked. No one is going around slabbing '56 Topps cards that have been cut down to standard size, as far as I know. Let's not confuse two clearly different practices. A card cut down to 2.5" x 3.5" doesn't fool anybody - there's usually no border left!

And, yeah, PRO graders and their ilk will not cease and desist simply because we ask nicely.

However, Boo - the concern regarding others who don't know as much as us and get burned on a trimmed card is the negative spin this gives our hobby. To wonder how so many knowedgable collectors can get so bunged up about an issue that really doesn't affect them is shortsighted - it does affect us and everyone who cares about this hobby.

Boopotts

"To wonder how so many knowedgable collectors can get so bunged up about an issue that really doesn't affect them is shortsighted - it does affect us and everyone who cares about this hobby."

True, you can construct that argument- and I agree with it in part. However, I don't think this sort of vigilance requires one to post a link to every PRO card that comes up for auction. These 'PRO threads' have to be considered stale by anyone's measure.

Additionally, I think it's time everyone realizes that these kinds of dime-store scams are just part of what you're going to have to deal with when you're talking about online auction sites. So, why get worked up about it? An analogy: One of the few other things that I'm serious about is sportsbetting; not 'handicapping', per se, but identifying and exploiting inefficiciencies in the sports betting market. I'm involved in a couple private forums which focus on sports betting, and you just about never see any 'scamdicapper' posts, or 'look what Wayne Root/ Jim Feist etc. etc. are claiming for winning percentages". All these guys are hucksters and rip-off artists, they're not going away anytime soon, and they don't impact how any of us bet. So why talk about them? Similar considerations hold true for PRO, or whatever other basement grading outfit happens to pop up.

Serious card collectors shouldn't be wasting their time or energy getting fired up about PRO or the people who sell their slabs--- just as serious sports bettors don't get in a lather everytime they hear a radio ad by some moron claiming 65% winners.

MorrellMan

Point taken, Boo. However, I don't know Wayne Root from a root canal, and I guarantee you, as soon threads about exploiters and jerkwads disappear from these boards, more innocent victims will wish they had had a warning.

Boopotts

"However, I don't know Wayne Root from a root canal, and I guarantee you, as soon threads about exploiters and jerkwads disappear from these boards, more innocent victims will wish they had had a warning."


Back at you, Mark-- point taken.

Stingray

Do you think that some of those scammers are reading these boards and checking on what we are saying here?


Stingray

1bbnerd

I wonder if it would feasible to put together a pricing guideline for trimmed cards in Pro and other grading companies holders? There seems to be a market for them, and some people feel that these trimmed cards do have some value. That would get the dealers and scammers all heated up wouldn't it, knowing they cannot get top dollar for their trimmed cards.

baseballcardsonly

<< <i>And for anyone who disagrees with my last statement - check this out:

Buyer:
1
2
3

Seller:
1
2
3

Just 3 of countless cases of an honest dealer selling, and a jackass buying to resell without disclosing the trim job.

>>



I emailed ebay about the piece of garbage...I also tacked on one for the 1955 Topps Duke Snider that he has listed. Don't know if they will do anything! FWIW.....

iamthegreatcornholio

I remember back when I first started buying nice vintage cards, I almost bought a slew of PRO cards. I honestly thought the difference in grading companies was like the difference in where you buy your clothes. It was these boards that helped me out, which is why I am quick to jump on these threads and point out scammers.

Brian