are the 60s getting this cheap as well?
goudeygold
Posts: 701 ✭
Was this an insane bargain, or a reflection of how far SMR is off?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5203963444
SMR 9 is $325. I balked (and barely got outbid) because I didn't think the centering qualified for a 9 from PSA. Your thoughts?
GG
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5203963444
SMR 9 is $325. I balked (and barely got outbid) because I didn't think the centering qualified for a 9 from PSA. Your thoughts?
GG
0
Comments
I got 58/42
My Auctions
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Who's going to buy this stuff 5 or 10 years from now? I think the smart money right now would be on '60's NFL/AFL and NHL stuff. The NHL because-well, it's not like hockey can get any less popular, and I don't think there are crates of high end raw sitting out there waiting to get slabbed. The old football stuff will appreciate because the print runs were so small, and like it or not the NFL is the new American Pastime. I bet cards like the '57 Unitas and '62 Tarkenton just hit the moon price wise by 2010-- but I don't see similar appreciation for things like the Seaver or Gibson RC's.
but hidden gems lie where most are not looking so time will tell...
GG
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>I would be very nervous if I owned a bunch of 60's and 70's high end slabs. >>
What makes me nervous are collectors who might be stupid enough to spend money they can't afford on cards and then have to worry about getting nervous about the market, populations, bla bla bla. This is a endless cycle among other things on this and probably all forums. Collectors funneling money into a hobby that should be for fun and nostalga instead of opening IRA's, etc and worrying themselves sick over card "worth"
Ok, my rant is done
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
At the end of the day all we collect are pieces of card board with pictures. They have no instrinsic value. The value is derived from the popularity of the player or sport. Football is the new national pastime, especially with the younger crowd. I would argue that the most popular athlete in the US is Tom Brady, with Peyton Manning second. The most popular baseball player right now is Barry Bonds, and he is not popular for good reasons.
When the NFL begins to sell its history like baseball has, vintage football cards will take off. But I hope that most of you disagree with me so that I don't have competition when I buy.
I agree that the Jim Brown RC could become the Mantle of the football world. However I think the Unitas RC is more likely to double.
I hear ya Soft, I collect for the love of the game. Obviously I always want to make a buck rather than lose a buck, but I also know this hobby isn't going to put my kids through college(at least I hope not becaus that would mean I bought WAYYYY to much!)
I just love the hobby. Getting a good deal, getting a good grade, and even getting one up the
My Auctions
Not to hijack the thread, but what do you football guys think of the 65 Namath, it's expensive enough now, do you think it'll continue to appeciate?
Brian
A lot of the market for this card is Registry participants, and why take the chance that this becomes a 9OC, or an 8, upon crossing? Nothing against SGC, they are the next best thing to PSA out there, but this card doesn't look like it would cross cleanly.
No, I think the others will catch up and it will stay steady.
I have a Namath, I was thinking its a 4-5
My Auctions
The better bet for 1960's QBs is the 1962 Fran Tarkenton RC. It comes from a tough condition series and his career stats are much better. Plus losing three Super Bowls helps cement his place in history.
Brian
The market will be fine as long as people are alive that remember the players during the era they watched the game and are nostalgiaic (SP?). I will always value RCs of Murray, Ripken, Boggs, Brett, Schmidt, McGwire, Alomar, Maddux, etc... because they are the guys I remember watching. There are millions of people like me who will ensure the card market for those guys will thrive. Same for the generation before me and the one before them. The generation before that is mostly gone and the cards thrive due to rarity and historical significance.
Lee
<< <i>Namath needs to stay sober and stop making a fool of himself on ESPN!. >>
...namath was just doing what we all have done in our lifetime ............... HE just happen to do it on NATIONAL TV...........dude has some serious kahounas.....I bet she works out.
When he did an interview later on ESPN he tried to make a joke out of it....i thought it was cool....but the interviewer looked disgusted....you remember that???? Give me a break......not like he did what every other drunk does and actually moved in for the kill. I think he got a raw deal....Suzy should have made a joke of it on ESPN and saved everyones face a little....she could have disarmed the situation by saying...."OH JOE...ALWAYS THE LADIES MAN"...BACK TO YOU GUYS!!! got out of the situation and asked for an interview later... then again... he did clean up because of it so its hard to say.
loth
"What makes me nervous are collectors who might be stupid enough to spend money they can't afford on cards and then have to worry about getting nervous about the market, populations, bla bla bla."
Well, fine. But some of us (or at least myself) don't really give a damn what we collect. I, for one, just like cards, whether it's a '53 baseball common or a Walter Payton RC. The sport, year, all that stuff doesn't matter to me. So, with all other things being equal, I try to pick up stuff that I think will appreciate.
That's the part of collecting that I find fascinating; trying to outguess the market.
You're right, of course, re: hockey's popularity. But consider: it can't get any less popular than it is now. Hell, ESPN's replacement programming outperformed the 2003-04 season of NHL coverage. And who knows? Weirder stuff has happened. The expand the ice, or get rid of the red line, and the game may pick up some steam.
I'm slowly stashing some hockey stuff away because I really think there's a scarcity of pre-68 cards in 8+ condition, and because I don't think hockey's popularity can sink any lower. Think the NBA in 1985.....
Stingray
<< <i>"What makes me nervous are collectors who might be stupid enough to spend money they can't afford on cards and then have to worry about getting nervous about the market, populations, bla bla bla."
Well, fine. But some of us (or at least myself) don't really give a damn what we collect. I, for one, just like cards, whether it's a '53 baseball common or a Walter Payton RC. The sport, year, all that stuff doesn't matter to me. So, with all other things being equal, I try to pick up stuff that I think will appreciate.
That's the part of collecting that I find fascinating; trying to outguess the market. >>
Any reason is a great reason to collect! as long as you can afford it. I have many high grade 70's slabs. I collect them because they are the cards that fuel my passion for the hobby. I could care less if they all end up valued less than the sneakers I use to cut my grass. The money I spend on my modern crap is money that I can afford. I will NEVER be nervous over my collections worth. I really don't care. I will love them just the same! Hats off to 1978 !!!!!!!
Dan
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>I would be very nervous if I owned a bunch of 60's and 70's high end slabs. >>
I would be more nervous if I owned a bunch of stuff that kids collect today. Everything printed in the last 15 years, even 20-25 years in some cases, will still be mint 50 years from now. You can't say that now about cards printed a half-century ago. Dealers churn and burn the new stuff; they aren't putting it away for the future, unless forced to by overproduction and low interest. I think "investors" would be wise to follow their example.
I agree the value of '70s cards will adjust downward (they already are) due to more and more raw cards being graded. But as you go back in time, there is less and less raw vintage material in high grade. In my opinion, owners of 1963 Mantle PSA 8's, for example, don't have anything to worry about. Sure the market will ebb and flow with the economy, but it won't be due to a massive influx of high-grade vintage.
I happen to agree about vintage football, but I think the best time to jump on that bandwagon may have passed. I also agree about hockey and Americans' low level of interest. An example on the baseball side is Mike Schmidt's OPC rookie selling for much less than the Topps, even though it is 20 times scarcer. The market is more than 20 times smaller.
<< <i>When the NFL begins to sell its history like baseball has, vintage football cards will take off. But I hope that most of you disagree with me so that I don't have competition when I buy.
I agree that the Jim Brown RC could become the Mantle of the football world. However I think the Unitas RC is more likely to double. >>
Interesting points. Interesting because these are the exact same points of view I was expressing to my friends about 15 years ago, when I started collecting vintage football. I didn't start because of future monetary growth, but rather because they were way more affordable at the time, than vintage baseball. One of my main collecting goals is to complete, as much as I can, all vintage football sets before "the word gets out" as to what great bargains these represent. My worst nightmare is to have all the longstanding baseball collectors jump ship and start with football. I truly believe that if that happens, or even a percentage of bb collectors, prices for vintage football will skyrocket, maybe even past baseball levels. Mostly because there would probably be a higher demand than supply.
Hopefully I can complete my goal before "it hit's the fan". I don't much care for the competition. I love being one of only a few people at local shows looking for vintage FB.
As for the Unitas RC, I would personally choose either the Starr or Hornung RC from the same set. The Unitas was a DP, as opposed to either the Starr or Hornung. You also can't overlook the Raymond Berry RC from the 2nd series, which is underappreciated in my opinion.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
Stingray
The exceptions came with shortprints or those sets that had printing issues.
Ironically you mentioned the R. Berry RC in your post. I purchased a PSA 8 Berry about 1 1/2 years ago for $1400+. SMR on the card at the time was $350. We discussed my aggressive bidding of the card in a thread on these forums (I'm too lazy to look up the thread right now). But I felt this card at $350 SMR was WAY undervalued and rarely comes up for auction. The one I bought was a hi end 8 IMO and would garner a 9 on a good day. I haven't seen one for sale since.
My point is that vintage football is undervalued/under appreciated, but even when paying above guide, you can get a good deal. Knowledge is the key
I think football is due for a major jump. I buy football because I love the sport and the history. Also the lower print numbers compared to vintage baseball will help support values. The only X-factor is how much unopened football product is left out there.
Another thing on the plus side of the ledger for football and hockey sets is that they're smaller, which means you can do so many more for the same price. There are a lot of guys here who don't mind taking two years or so to complete a mammoth baseball set, and I can appreciate their dilligence, but newer collectors may decide it's simpler and more fun to piece together a '61 football set in high grade than a '61 baseball set. And, of course, you can do it for a fraction of the cost.
One other thing I forgot to mention is '50's hockey. You just can NOT find this stuff raw in NM or better-- or at least I can't, and I've been to countless Gibraltar shows here and three of the Expo shows in Toronto. Last I checked commons in 8 NQ slabs from the '59 set were going for about 80 bucks or so, which I have to think is a tremendous value.
Last point-- Another card that can only go up (IMO) is the '62 Tarkenton.
Stingray
I agree if your doing it for fun it doesn't matter. A few months back I started looking for the 35 chicle football set since it is small and the mac daddy football issue. problem is, there aren't many around in decent shape and like pre-war baseball it is way undervalued.
GG
fabfrank - WOW! That's quite a bit over guide, but I generally agree that paying over guide on some things is a bargain, if you know what your doing. I'm not sure I would have paid that much for it, but I have paid over guide on a few things myself, although I try to be as patient as I can and wait to see if something comes along. But also, all of my opinions here are from a non-graded card collector point of view. Before I had even an inkling of how the graded card market worked, and before it was as big as it is now, I passed on a few really nice Berry RC's for around $75-90, thihking I could find a better bargain somewhere. I kick myself to this day.
I have seen many articles over the years dedicated to reporting on what great bargain's vintage FB represent compared to BB, but I have yet to see it "take off" like it has always predicted. Some of the other great "bargains" I remember reading about are - Sonny Jurgensen RC, Tarkenton RC (as mentioned here), Bradshaw RC, O.J. Simpson RC (Yes, at one time), and Walter Payton RC, which was predicted at the time, to become the 1952 Mantle of FB cards.
It's interesting to think back and to see how things actually turn out.
ndleo - I'm with you. Collecting vintage FB without having an appreciation for the history of the sport just doesn't make sense to me. Most of the sets I collect were made before I was born so it was really important to take time and learn some things about the p0layers, teams, and wild histories of the various leagues.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
Vintage sets are alot like the smaller, modern sets, without all the parallels, inserts, chase cards, mail-in offers, etc... The base sets of today or almost throwawy items to alot of collectors. They are to todays sets, what gum was to vintage sets. Back then some ate the gum, and some threw it away. Today, some collect the base sets, and some throw the away. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
It might be that it just takes a while or that FB fans simply do not translate well into FB cards collectors.
It might have to do with the history of BB vs FB or that FB its only followed here in the US...I really dont know.
I have noticed a great jump in prices for non-sports issues...I think that area might still have some room for growth.
courtesy of Morrelman:
Groucho Marx
Callecho- you need to start tracking some prices. Almost every fintage football PSA 8 and above trades at or over SMR in PSA 8 and above.
From personal experience, when I started building my Philly football sets, my intent was to build the set in PSA 7. I than starting buying 8's because they were reasonable (average cost $13-$18). I started looking at 9's and decided I would pick up PSA 9's at $55 or less. That was about 2-3 years ago. Now 8's go for $30-$50 with regularity. 9's start at $80 and up. Matter of fact, BBCardExchange had some 66 Philly football PSA 9's end on Ebay the last few days. Those cards went from $200-$450 apiece.
I would say the average Philly football common in PSA 9 goes for $90-$120. That's a pretty good increase.
I am sure they have gone quite a lot in price and have outperformed baseball cards percentage wise...However my point was about one day Football cards having comparable prices to baseball...they are not there yet...wether its commons or stars
I honestly dont know much at all about Football cards. All i have learned about them has been here on this board. I am sure they have gone up in price, at one point they were severely undervalued.
However I looked at Completed auctions for football on ebay for PSA 9's from the 60's and most of those cards were around 100-300 and most of those in that price range were all 1/1 or 1/2.
Then i looked at baseball PSA 9's from the 60's and any of the cards that were 1/1 or 1/2 were at least $650 +
Only 2 cards from the 60's in PSA 9 made above $1000 dollars while 10 made that 4 digit list in baseball. ( to be fair there are 10X as many cards in the baseball section and thats only a 2 week period)
Groucho Marx
If anyone is interested in reading interesting articles and discussions about football history, check out this website.
Football research website
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
Callecho- this is true. Even with the increases in football card prices the last 2 years, they still have a ways to go before they catch up to baseball levels. The key point is that all the factors continue to point to the fact that they are undervalued and still a bargain as compared to baseball. Lower print runs, unprecedented following for the sport, smaller sets and less availability in hi grade point to more increases in prices.
Believe me, us football card collectors (I do collect baseball also, but football is my passion) have been fortunate in that the price increases have been slow and steady. All it would take is a few big baseball buyers to enter the market and you would see an explosion in prices.
You are right though. At one point football cards were severely undervalued. Now they are just undervalued.
I can recall, before I started collecting football, back in the 80's, my local card shop would box up all the vintage FB cards they got in when they bought collections, and basically sell them by the pound. No singles, no sets, no unopened packs, just boxes full of whatever FB cards they got in. I just wish I was into them at the time. Knowing that particular dealer, I'm sure there would have been considerable value in those boxes, even for the time.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05