1976 Walter Payton Card - Grading Question

envoy98

I just got this in the mail this morning (via very late express mail)...anyway, what do you think this card would grade. I know what I would grade it...I'm curious what you guys think.

Ahmanfan

7/8

IJustLoveCards

psa 8...but freaking psa could say psa 10 for all I know

EagleEyeKid

It's one of those trick questions again.
You bought the card on the bay (probably graded PSA 9).
You get it in your hands and it's not even close to what it
was assigned. Chipping on bottom edge. Slightly off centered T/B and tilted L/R.
Throw in those lovely surface crud. Is that a long nose hair out of his
right nostril? I'd give it an 8.

Edited: It was probably a PSA 10 since you threw in that you received it Express Mail.
If that card is a 10, I'm gonna puke.

zef204

I would say PSA 8.


I just got my Payton back last week and it was an 8. I thought it had a chance for a 9 as it graded BVG 8.5 with 9.5 for centering.

envoy98

I didn't buy it off the bay, I actually trade someone for it. The spot above and left of his head is actually a surface wrinkle (a ring) with a very small piece of paper missing. There is some excessive blue ink on the lef edge just in the picture to the right of the yellow border, there is a blank ink spot on the bottom. The scan I received was apparently lower res and just a bit smaller than this scan. It does have 55/45 or better centering all the way around, and it's 82/18 on the back in both directions and yes, there is the slightest tilt (about 1pt) on the front of the card. If I didn't know the grade, I'd call it a 7 or an 8(PD).
But alas... Here is my $500 card... I'm kinda PO'd.



I know psa has an "overgraded" policy..has anyone ever taken advantage of it? How does it work exactly?

jrdolan

For purposes of getting PSA to buy the card, I don't think they will concede that the very slight tilt and surface marks knock it down from 9. You could always crack it out and submit raw and (at this point in the easy-tough cycle) and it will probably come back as an 8. That will prove you're right, but it won't be much comfort.

If you don't like it, why not sell it and buy one with a good scan so you're not surprised?

Stone193

Josh
Did you have a scan before the trade? If not - can you contact the person and discuss it? I will say in the world of 76T cards, that's not bad. But, I think it's a nice "solid" 8 and since that would go for 175$ and it's supposed to be a 500$ card - there's a bit of a disparity - perhaps why the person was wanting to trade it?

I would contact the person and tell them your feeling and see what they say? And then take it from there.

mike

Ahmanfan

I dont get why everyone is saying it will come back an 8 if resubmitted?? It has a spot of paper loss! Isn't that an automatic 4?

envoy98

They did have a scan of it, I will say though, that I initially scanned it at 150 DPI in an effort to keep the image size small and the paper loss and print dots on the left side did not show up at all. In the persons defense I traded with, they are not a vintage collector, nor a grader or collector of graded cards. He deals strictly in modern and just happened to get this card in trade. I gave up $30 in paypal, a Payton auto from 99 Retro and a Keary Colbert Topps Photo Shoot auto (BV of about $500, market cash value of about $400+paypal) Slightly overpaying for the comfort of knowing I'd get the card and it wouldn't be a busted holder or take a month to get. I'm sure to this person if it says PSA 9, it's a PSA 9. To me, it's no better than a 7. I really don't fault them. I strongly adhere to, and believe in the "buy the card, not the holder" theory, however, the main selling point of a graded card is that, all things being equal, you can expect a certain grade to exhibit certain characteristics, and in the case of a 9, be free of certain defects and flaws. Paper loss is not a flaw that should be/is allowed on a 9.

Regardless, this card going in my personal collection, and is a nice addition to my all time rushers set registry, but in this case, I'm just a little disappointed. I don't fault the person who traded it to me at all. I just think this is a terrible looking 9, and a resubmit would not be as favorable. I even asked for the cert# to make sure it wasn't a "0" flip and I felt more confident in it knowing it wasn't. Live and learn I guess.

JR-I probably will look for a better 9 and sell this one at some point, I was just really surprised when I got it. Like I said earlier, if I didn't know it was a 9 and someone showed me that card raw.. I would say 9 (PD) or 7 and have no hesitation about it at all. And you're right, the one print mark and slight tilt probably aren't enough drop it down a grade, but that surface wrinkle and small touch of paper loss should be more than enough to drop it. It just looks like a small stain or something in the scan, but up close under 6x and a halogen lamp, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Thanks for the advice/comments guys. I appreciate it. I'll tell ya, I spent $450 on a beautiful 66 Philadelphia Sayers yesterday, and that thing makes this Payton look like crap. If this Payton is a 9, my Sayers is a 10. I think zef's 8 looks better than my 9. <shrug> Whad'ya do...?

williplett

That sucks. That doesn't look like a 9 from where I sit. But, if it says 9 you can't and don't blame the guy selling it. It does have nicer corners than I see on 8's. But, the paper loss and print defects make it a low 8 in my opinion.

sayheykid54

The spot definitely detracts from the card. This is in no way a Psa 9 card, or Psa 7 for that matter. I would ask for my money back.

Stingray

How does one miss paperloss on a card and still give it a 9?

P.S. What is that a long nose hair?

Stingray

envoy98

<< <i>How does one miss paperloss on a card and still give it a 9?

P.S. What is that a long nose hair?

Stingray >>



lol

I really don't know. It's on the card.

I'm going to send PSA an email, with a scan of the card. It probably won't do any good, but I'm curious to hear what they will say and if they have any recommendations for me.

Wish me luck.

eadams24

I would say that card is a 6.

CDsNuts

Good idea sending PSA pics. They may buy it back, especially if you stress the fact that there is paper loss. If not, list it on ebay and buy another. Even if you only get $400 and buy another for $500 I think it's worth the upgrade.

Lee

Southsider

I would definitely be disappointed in that card. Sorry.

When I was looking for my Payton 9, I waited until I found a real nice one and I paid a little over market at the time. But, the card is a beauty, it literally GLOWS in person. I seriously doubt I would be as satisfied with most 10's compared to my 9.

ajw

I'm certainly not an expert on PSA's standards, but if there really is paper loss it would seem *very* difficult to defend the grade. I would at least send the company a scan with a polite and respectful inquiry.

TimeMachine

How will DBH defend this one? Two obvious, distracting print defects on the front, chipping along the bottom edge, and apparently "paper loss"... there are plenty of tilted 9's out there, but c'mon. If I send that in, I get an 8 PD or maaaaaaybe an 8 NQ. I wonder who was asleep at the wheel the day that one got graded... lmao.

Still waiting for dabighurt to weigh in... tick, tock...

envoy98

I too would love to hear his, or anyones defense of this one.

Here is a 4800DPI scan of the paper loss. It's hard to see the wrinkle that exists, but trust me...it's raised "bubble" on the surface of the card, you can see it just inside the edges of the red circle. The "bubble" is actually easier to see in the full-card scans I provided earlier.

I did send an email to customer service and a couple different attempts at a Joe Orlando email. I received four automated replies from the customer service account, we'll see if I get a real person to reply. And just to show them my good faith in them has not been completely destroyed, I put together 3 submissions tonight with 79 cards.

The paper loss is obviously the big black chunk you see in the center.

Glynparson

If its paper loss why is it black? topps did not use black cardboard in 1976.

envoy98

<< <i>If its paper loss why is it black? topps did not use black cardboard in 1976. >>



Not sure what's to be confused about...it's not really "black" it's probably dirty cardboard. You can plainly see the surface of the card and all the dots that make up the background image, and then in the middle of it, there is a very noticeable "hole" in that surface where it obviously drops. There is no surface there, that top layer of the card is gone in that spot and you are seeing the next layer under that. Hence paper-loss