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CONDITION RARITIES? YOU CAN HAVE THEM.
veryfine
Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭
As coin enthusiasts, we all have our own personal collecting interests. Some like modern proof sets while others like vf-20 barber coins. However it will take a truck load of valid arguments to convince me that an ms 69 or even 70 state quarter deserves a high price tag because it is "rare."
I am speaking for myself when I say that the most desirable coins are the ones that have value in the lowest grades and incrementally increase in price as the grade goes higher. The 1877 indian cent is a prime example of what I like. What I don't like are series such as Franklin halves or washington quarters which exist in huge quantities in low grades but in ms 66 or 67, the value hits the roof.
Before you all comment:
Yes, I am aware that condition is important.
Yes, I am aware that there are a miniscule quantities of fbl franklins in such and such a grade.
Yes, I am aware that the there is a demand or the price wouldn't be so high.
But come on! Doesn't it bother you just a little bit, knowing that the ms-66 coin you just paid $10,000 for is woth $2.00 in Fine-12 and $25 in ms-63?
The availability AS A DATE is the most important factor to me.
What's your opinion?
I am speaking for myself when I say that the most desirable coins are the ones that have value in the lowest grades and incrementally increase in price as the grade goes higher. The 1877 indian cent is a prime example of what I like. What I don't like are series such as Franklin halves or washington quarters which exist in huge quantities in low grades but in ms 66 or 67, the value hits the roof.
Before you all comment:
Yes, I am aware that condition is important.
Yes, I am aware that there are a miniscule quantities of fbl franklins in such and such a grade.
Yes, I am aware that the there is a demand or the price wouldn't be so high.
But come on! Doesn't it bother you just a little bit, knowing that the ms-66 coin you just paid $10,000 for is woth $2.00 in Fine-12 and $25 in ms-63?
The availability AS A DATE is the most important factor to me.
What's your opinion?
0
Comments
to collecting it. In most areas I'm interested in varieties but with darkside
coins I have little interest in them. With good-for tokens I have almost no
interest in grade. Oh sure when given the choice I'll take the nicer one but
I'd never buy a good-for to upgrade. In a few areas my primary interest is
type and in others I want every date.
There are those who look for the worst grade and those who look for coins
with holes. There are collectors for almost everything.
If you collect indian cents in XF/ AU are you going to omit the 1907 from your
collection just because there were more than 100,000,000 minted? Or are you
going to just go ahead and get a little better grade like a slider unc?
To each his own. If you don't like Washingtons or Franklins you can collect
anything else and do it any way you choose.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Anyone seen my 1884S morgan? >>
Did you look under the cushions?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
"To each his own. If you don't like Washingtons or Franklins you can collect anything else and do it any way you choose."
No, it doesn't 'bother' me, but I can share in Veryfine's skepticism about the enormous prices being paid for modern 'rarities'. I recall at the ANA Summer Convention a few years ago in Atlanta, several of the JRCS members were having our usual evening bull session. One of the major auctions was being conducted at the same time, and one of our members returned, completely incredulous at the fact that a 1953-S (?) MS-68 (?) FBL Franklin half had just sold at something like $90,000! As early Federal coin collectors, we all made similar comments about a fool and his money, but one of the members said it best when he stated:
"For the same money, you could buy a 1953-S FBL Franklin wonder coin, or you could buy a 1796 half, and a 1797 half, and maybe have a little change left over. Which one would you prefer?"
I think that pretty well summed it up for all of us.
<< <i>
<< <i>Anyone seen my 1884S morgan? >>
Did you look under the cushions? >>
Yeah but all I found was my 1892S Morgan next to my 1895O.
<< <i>
"For the same money, you could buy a 1953-S FBL Franklin wonder coin, or you could buy a 1796 half, and a 1797 half, and maybe have a little change left over. Which one would you prefer?"
I think that pretty well summed it up for all of us. >>
Neither of the Draped bust halfs would look quite right in the Franklin collection.
<< <i>"For the same money, you could buy a 1953-S FBL Franklin wonder coin, or you could buy a 1796 half, and a 1797 half, and maybe have a little change left over. Which one would you prefer?" >>
Does this answer this question? And I could give a Rat's @zz whom approves of what I purchase.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Actually, some people (like me) appreciate both condition rarities and mintage rarities- both modern and classic....
good safe answer...
the Kitty was about to bop you!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>
<< <i>"For the same money, you could buy a 1953-S FBL Franklin wonder coin, or you could buy a 1796 half, and a 1797 half, and maybe have a little change left over. Which one would you prefer?" >>
Does this answer this question? And I could give a Rat's @zz whom approves of what I purchase.
GRUMP!!!!
<< <i>GRUMP!!!! >>
you should be proud of me daddy-o!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
My 1857 Mint set is a complete different animal.
these coins are relatively cheap in circ grades (except for the gold) and start to get very spendy in high AU and low MS grades.
i want to complete the 1857 set in whatever grade i can afford (36 coins ! )
<< <i> .................To each his own. If you don't like Washingtons or Franklins you can collect anything else and do it any way you choose. >>
1) Condition rarities
2) Absolute date/mm rarities
3) Personal favorites that make you happy as a collector and might have high or medium or even low value
4) Some real eccentric coins or numismania that offers real mystique to other collectors
By the way, I love that 1953-S Franklin. That is an astonishing looking coin for the grade.
What's your opinion?
I agree with you, and prefer a coin that is scarce in ANY grade.
Even better IMO is a coin that is rare in any grade and only a handful of people have one at all
For example, O.125a:
I challenge anyone to show me another one, in any grade, at any price.
PS: I do have collections of Washington quarters and Franklin halves. Attractive, raw, 64s and 65s.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I like the 1806 bust half but I would prefer one in Mint state to one in VF.
The underlying question is one that has been hashed many times before. It doesn't matter if we are talking classic or modern, is a one grade difference between two mint states really worth 10 times the lesser grade if the difference is not obvious to the majority of collectors and we need three "experts" with a 16X glass to tell them apart?
My reply is NO.
Now take a look at a 1921-D Walking Liberty half. Look how the prices increase as the mint state grades move up. Needless to say, I would feel more comfortable paying for an MS-66 over an MS-65, if I could afford one. The coin is already a formidable rarity in MS-65. It's a rare coin in AU-50!
I can only speak for myself when I say, no way would I pay thousands of dollars for a Wisconsin quarter showing zero marks, full cheese detail and full cow horn!
Yes, I know all about "to each his own" and "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but isn't this getting a little out of control?
<< <i>It doesn't matter if we are talking classic or modern, is a one grade difference between two mint states really worth 10 times the lesser grade if the difference is not obvious to the majority of collectors and we need three "experts" with a 16X glass to tell them apart?
My reply is NO. >>
Excellent point coynclecter. I just commmented on this in a recent reply.
<< <i>Your ms 67 FBL simply cannot look thousands of dollars better than mine >>
wanna bet?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>
The underlying question is one that has been hashed many times before. It doesn't matter if we are talking classic or modern, is a one grade difference between two mint states really worth 10 times the lesser grade if the difference is not obvious to the majority of collectors and we need three "experts" with a 16X glass to tell them apart?
My reply is NO. >>
...and it really should be put to rest.
The simple fact is that there is a huge spread in quality from the worst to the best
and even a novice can see these differences. You can literally describe the basics of
grading to a novice and have him separate ten coins from the best to the worst. If
these coins cover the entire grading range and are distinctly different then the novice
will get them right.
You may need to be an expert to define the grades, but not to see the difference.
Seeing the difference in proofs requires some learning and training the eye. This dif-
ference is very important to many people because the higher grade really does look a
lot better. Many people consider proofs to be the epitome of quality and the highest
grades to be the epitome of proofs. These are relatively scarce hence those willing to
pay up for quality have pushed these prices upward.
This is not rocket science. If you don't want quality for any reason then don't buy it.
Certainly many people will always avoid paying more for higher quality they can't see
or experience for themselves but don't take something that applies to classic and mo-
dern proofs and apply it to all modern coins.
<< <i> The simple fact is that there is a huge spread in quality from the worst to the best and even a novice can see these differences. You can literally describe the basics of grading to a novice and have him separate ten coins from the best to the worst. , but not to see the difference. >>
Yes, the novice can tell the difference between a vg and an xf or an ms-61 and ms-64, but how about ms-66 to ms-67? How does an expert describe the differences? However, that isn't my main point.
An ms-67 1904-s Barber half over an ms-66 example would be worth a second look. But, an ms-69 state quarter over an ms-68?
Of course, I would want the ms-69, but how much would you pay for the difference, no matter how rare that coin in that condition is?
If there are billions in ms-65 and hundreds in 68, are you comfortable paying a much higher price for your higher grade?
Now getting back to your last point. The old timers would never pay more than 2x to 3x maximum the next lower grade for a MAJOR grade unless you are talking about a jump in the tens or hundreds of dollars.
65 and 67 are major grades. 62, 64, 66, and 69 are NOT major grades.
68 is developing a separate mystique as a semi-major grade.
70? Still do not know what to do with that grade.
But a 67FBL versus a 65FBL or 67 versus 65 are light years apart even to most novices.
I like your use of "Barbers", when you are giving examples.
I have to agree with you, I choose mintage rarity over condition rarity, any day. If the coin has a combination of the two, even better, i.e. the 1904-s Barber half that you were referring too, but a better example would be the 1901-s Barber quarter. The 1901-s Barber quarter has a much lower mintage than the 04-s, is scarce (and expensive) in the lowly grades of ag - good, and is extremley rare in AU and rare in uncirculated grades.
I certainly don't put down collectors of Washingtons, Roosevelts, or Franklins, as I have completed BU sets of all in the past. It was just that my interests had changed, to rarer date, type coins, and the more classic series, like Barbers.
Connor Numismatics Website
<< <i>veryfine: You spoke of the 1921-D walker. Would the 1921-P walker also fit your same parameters?
But a 67FBL versus a 65FBL or 67 versus 65 are light years apart even to most novices. >>
Yes, I would include the 21-P walker for sure.
As for 67 vs. 65, that would depend on what attributes result in the grade difference. What if the 65 had some very light well-hidden marks and an excellent strike. The 67 would have no noticeable marks with the same strike. That's "light years" apart, commanding a 20x price difference? If there are ten thousand ms-65s, in order to justify the date, it seems as if you are looking for new ways to create a rarity. As a date, it doesn't have a leg to stand on.
<< <i>VeryFine,
I certainly don't put down collectors of Washingtons, Roosevelts, or Franklins, as I have completed BU sets of all in the past. It was just that my interests had changed, to rarer date, type coins, and the more classic series, like Barbers. >>
Yes, Dan F, good point. I am not putting them down either. I am simply giving my point of view, as a collector. We all love quality, but if one less mark on a common date coin makes you empty out your back account, than you have a much stronger constitution than I do.
<< <i>
If there are billions in ms-65 and hundreds in 68, are you comfortable paying a much higher price for your higher grade? >>
There are not billions of any moderns in MS-65. Indeed if every modern ever minted had
been carefully set aside in an inert enviroment on the day it was made and they all still
existed there would still not be a billion of any modern in MS-65.
These coins were workhorse coins. They went out and they circulated. Some of these
coins are virtually impossible to find except in the mint or proof sets and in some cases
the attrition on the sets has been staggering. There is every possibiliy that there isn't
one single MS-65 '69 quarter still existing that didn't come from a mint set!!! First there
are virtually no rolls whatsoever of this coin (except a few mint set rolls). The rolls that
might exist probably won't contain any MS-65's if they look like the '69 rolls that were a-
round back in 1969. While there are a few mint sets left only a very low percentage will
contain a gem Philly quarter. When it's said that some of these are scarce in upper grades
this applies to more upper grades than just the highest.
There are millions of some coins set aside and tens of millions of some of the states issues,
but the quality is often quite poor and the demand is extremely high.
If you choose ten uncirculated coins over the entire spectrum of grades where each is equi-
distant apart in grade and each is slightly superior to the preceeding in all ways then a nov-
ice will usually be able to correctly separate them from best to worst. Try it! There is a vast
range for all mint stae coins from best to worst. With most classics the coins were made with
most in a narrow part of that range but this isn't so true with most moderns. Some will be
mostly mid range (MS-63) some will be mostly low end and others will tend to be toward the
higher end (MS-64) but very few will be gem quality even when the coins are fairly nice. This
is largely the result of the very hard metal being struck which wears out the dies and modern
production techniques that employ vastly superior die steels and far more strikes at far higher
speeds.
Absolute rarity is a neat thing, only if you can afford to buy the rarity in a grade you like (you know, one that really makes it a rarity). If you like XF coins, but talk yourself into a rare AG, whats the point. A slug is a slug.....even if its rare. JMO
Baley....nice coin.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor