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Seeking Opinions On this 1857 1/2 Dime "Updated": Got Grade

Just want to get some thoughts and opinions on this 1/2 Dime I picked up. Some grade help would also be appreciated. Thanks!


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Comments

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yuck!!!image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Kinda splotchy. Probably higher VF
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it has the measles. Don't get too close.
  • mirabelamirabela Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see luster and decent head detail, so I'm thinking higher than VF. By detail alone, I'd go XF45 or AU50 I guess, but it also looks like it saw some cleaning or other fairly harsh abrasion at some point in its life. I'm ordinarily a fan of funky grubby toning but I don't especially care for the look of that one.

    It would be welcome in my set but only at a high VFish price.
    mirabela
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,609 ✭✭
    Looks like Rubella
  • lathmachlathmach Posts: 4,720
    A common variety from the reworked hub. VF as the others have said.

    Ray
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    I must agree pretty much with what the others have said. The splotchy toning is not too attractive, and can easily distract the eye when attempting to grade. But if we ignore the toning and grade the coin simply in terms of wear, I would grade it perhaps VF-35. The usual high points (hair, breast, neck line, thigh) all have wear consistent with a high VF grade. The reverse actually warrants a few points higher, as the typical high points in the upper left wreath look about EF-40.

    As to variety, as LathMach said, it is from the 'reworked hub', which was strengthened that year, but I cannot say it is a common variety. 'Variety' is synonymous with die marriage, and we simply do not know which die marriage it is, as there has never been any definitive reference work published on the series to date. As it is a Philadelphia coin (hence, no mint mark) and there are no obvious die markers visible in the photo, it must go unattributed. It looks like S2 is filled at the bottom, so I will work with that and see if I have any data on it.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
    VF30, poss. old cleaning/retoning.
  • LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162
    image I appreciate everyones honest opinions! Kind of what I expected. Good on Ya!image
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    Lee:

    It appears that we can attribute it after all. It is an example of the Valentine V5, as evidenced by the lower loop of S2 filled, and a die crack extending from the upright of E3 to the rim. On the obverse, the placement of the date numerals relative to the dentils appears to agree with V5, as well. Nothing earth shattering, but it is always nice to know the variety.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • mrdqmrdq Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭
    DIPPING is not going to hurt that baby if you know how to properly dip coins.

    --------T O M---------

    -------------------------
  • ChangeInHistoryChangeInHistory Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cleaned long ago, VF-20/25 with some interesting spotty toning
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dipped at one time and not properly rinsed. That is why you see the ugly pattern of retoning.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162
    Also keep in mind how small this coin really is. It does look funky blown up to "Super Size". Heres a more natural picture:


    imageimage
  • toyonakatarotoyonakataro Posts: 407 ✭✭✭
    Looks much better in the 2nd picture. Even those toning looks attractive to me. I'm afraid to be laughed at, but I think the coin has EF45-AU details.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭
    Interesting toning and not all that bad in my opinion.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • prooflikeprooflike Posts: 3,879 ✭✭
    If my opinion is worth anything, I don't like it either image

    and wouldn't even hazard a guess at a grade.

    image
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    I would guess that it was cleaned and retoned, with a grade of VF. I actually think it looks interesting, and wouldn't dip it......
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Looks decent in the second picture for about VF30.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's the first camouflage coin I've ever seen image
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like those "rinse" toning jobs myself. But the first photo makes it look nicer than the second.
  • Purple73Purple73 Posts: 2,016
    Hmmm Cleaned/retoned. I don't really like the splochyness to it. It's a cool coin of course. Even the 2nd photo doesn't blow my kilt up. It's a half dime though!

    Oh graded VF30-VF35 but the reverse shows nice EF-45 -Au 50.

    PURPLE
  • LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162
    image Came back from PCGS graded AU58.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow. I must say that I am shocked, but happy for you. image
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    No way that's a 58, IMO, but congrats anyway!
  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice grade for it. The 2nd image does seem to show the coin has luster.
  • tHE STRIKE MUST BE VERY DECEPTIVE ON THESE BABIES !
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I missed this earlier, but when I saw it I said you folks are way undergrading this coin, it may be somewhat marginal in eye-appeal, but the grade looked mid AU level IMO, I see that PCGS gave it a 58.

  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Interesting. there are some clues to higher grade like the shield and stars have little wear. the apparent flattening on miss liberty must be more lighting/strike than actual wear.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When this thread started I was thinking it was a 55 to 58.

    With the other opinions I was thinking how poor my grading is.image

    On my monitor the first image displayed at about 10 inches wide.
    It's like trying to grade with a 20X glass.
    Grading images really messes with me.image
    Larry

  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    That is precisely why I do not have a third party grade my coins. The vast majority of the learned participants on this forum graded the coin in the VF - EF range, mindful of the limitations of attempting to grade a three dimensional coin on a two dimemsional monitor. Nonetheless, when the coin reappeared, blessed with a paper insert stating AU-58! of all things, from the all knowing 'experts', it is somehow blindly accepted as such. Read the comments both before and after submission. It is the same coin, folks. It has the same wear on the thigh, leaves, and rims. It is not now, nor will it ever again be, an AU-58, no matter how perciptously grade-flation erodes the 'standards'.

    I am reminded of a recent incident that perhaps best illustrates what has happened to 'grading standards' in recent years. In a recent auction sale, a good friend sold his complete date/mint collection of Liberty Seated half dimes, primarily in MS condition. Prior to the sale, he privately offered me his key date 1840-O With Drapery half dime, which was graded AU-55, and one of the nicest examples of that date I had ever seen (I had been instrumental in brokering the sale of that coin to him just two years prior). In purchasing that coin from him, I offered (in addition to a cash sum) my own example of the 1840-O With Drapery, in EF-40, purchased raw several years ago, so that his collection could be sold as 'complete'. My EF-40 1840-O WD was sent to the TPG experts just prior to the auction, and it came back AU-55! If placed side-by-side, 100 out of 100 people would have chosen the first coin as being decidedly superior, but the grading service had graded them both AU-55, so that is how they will both be recorded, despite the considerable differences. According to the TPG, I upgraded my 1840-O WD from AU-55 to AU-55, for several thousand dollars!

    No thank you. I will use my own eyes and my own grading skills to grade the coins in my collection. And to think that people actually pay good money for that 'service' makes it all the more difficult to comprehend.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • I'm glad you say that MrHalfDime...........I almost thought my grading of Half-Dimes sucked! I know I'm off from time to time but not that bad LOL!

    I've looked at and bought enough VF Half-Dimes to know that this one is VF without question.


    PURPLE!
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭
    The vast majority of the learned participants on this forum graded the coin in the VF - EF range, mindful of the limitations of attempting to grade a three dimensional coin on a two dimemsional monitor.

    With all due respect to the board members and with my flame suit on, anyone IMO that thinks that this coin has very fine details clearly does not know how to grade 1/2 dimes. image

    So using the responses of the board members in no way substantiates that the grade is incorrect IMO. The real problem is not having the coin in hand, one cannot really tell how much luster there is on the coin. The first blow-up of the coin makes it look like the coin was run over by a truck but I suspect in hand it looks more like light wear.

    Joe.
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭
    If placed side-by-side, 100 out of 100 people would have chosen the first coin as being decidedly superior, but the grading service had graded them both AU-55

    The problem with the above statement is that this is true for most slabbed coins. Remember, a grade is a range. If you put several coins with the same grade side by side I guarantee you that one of them looks better than the others yet they can still fall within the same grade range (number).

    In fact, in previous threads you will find those that can tell the difference between a low, mid and high range MS coin even though they are all graded with the same number.

    Joe.

    Edit: spelling
  • Uhhhhhhhhhhh Uncle Joe,

    You do know what you are typing don't you?

    I'm just curious.

    PURPLE!
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    Uncle Joe:

    I would preface my comments with the caveat that all grading is subjective. I will, however, stack my grading skills for half dimes (only) against anyone's, as that is essentially all that I have collected or graded for over 25 years. The 'standard' that I have evolved is based upon the ANA published standard, modified with 'comparison grading' of tens of thousands of half dimes that I have encountered at shows and in auctions, graded by others. My grade of choice happens to be AU-58, and I have hundreds of AU-58 half dimes in my collection with which to compare, none of which remain in slabs.

    In your own statement, you describe the 1857 half dime as follows:

    "The first blow-up of the coin makes it look like the coin was run over by a truck".

    Yet you defend the AU-58 grade? I recognize that magnification of any coin will only enhance any minor problem, but I can honestly state that any AU-58 half dime in my collection has not suffered even a minor mishap with a truck. My standard is higher than that.

    To be sure, it would have been better if I could have posted images of both half dimes in my earlier example, to better illustrate the discrepancy in grades by just one grading service, but I did not have those illustrations. But virtually everyone on this forum, and in any segment of numismatics, has his/her own story of grading discrepancies. Why do coins get cracked out and resubmitted if the standard is so precise? Why are yesterday's EFs being resubmitted, and coming back as AUs if the 'standard' is so precise? Grading will always be subjective, and as such, it will always be victim to the vagaries of TPGs, dealers, and yes, even collectors, driven by the pursuit of the almighty buck. Even the most hardcore 'collector', who would not consider owning a coin entombed in plastic, will often submit his entire collection for grading when it comes time to sell.

    We most certainly will not resolve the grading dispute here, in this forum, and it is perhaps impolite of us to use this thread to publicly debate the issue. We can, and should, congratulate Lee for the incredible 'gift' he received from PCGS, and for his nice half dime. I can fully appreciate any half dime, especially if it brings satisfaction to its owner. Nice coin, Lee.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭
    I don't think the coin looks like an AU coin. But beyond that, it doesn't look original and am surprised it didn't get BB'd. I don't think this coin should be in a holder, JMO.

    Glad you got a gift from PCGS. Most of us have at one point or another.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Congratulations on your "GIFT" from PCGS.image

    How about you put the coin up for auction at Teletrade or elsewhere and let us all have a chance to bid on it? I still think the coin is VF30 and not very pretty.image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • I have an 1857 similar in appearance minus the splotches. Very weak strike and MS64 (if I recall correctly). At first glance, I'd say XF45 tops for the coin you posted but after considering what I have in a holder. . .I just don't know. Anyone care to share more information on why the 1857's seem to vary so wildly in detail?

  • Appears to be Breen 3085

    retouched hub open 5

    business strikes have weak denticles (same as Breen 3084) also dent on inner point of third star.

    Still looks like a gift,but the diagnostics would seem to indicate a fair grade !

    Congrats LEE !
    image
  • LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162
    image Appreciate everyones opinions on this coin. Very interesting, amusing, and varied.

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