Graded cards more valuable?
knglerxt
Posts: 38
Hello,
I just recently got back into this hobby, and this is my first post here. I have a question that's been bugging me: What's the deal with people paying more for graded cards? I fail to see how that adds any value to the cards at all. I've started to see this a lot, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, I think that should reinforce the book value because you have a professional grading company saying a card is a certain condition. For example, I saw a 1991 Topps Chipper Jones RC (not the Desert Storm card) on E-Bay recently and the seller wanted $100 for it just because it was graded PSA 10. As most of you probably know, the market value for that card is only a few dollars at NMT. I could maybe understand the card going up a few dollars because it's in such high condition, but not from a few dollars to $100. That's just ridiculous. I really don't understand the need to grade a modern card anyway. The card isn't that old; it should be in NMT or MT condition. Why should you have to have a grading company tell you that?
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't have anything against grading companies. I just don't understand where the added value comes from.
I just recently got back into this hobby, and this is my first post here. I have a question that's been bugging me: What's the deal with people paying more for graded cards? I fail to see how that adds any value to the cards at all. I've started to see this a lot, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, I think that should reinforce the book value because you have a professional grading company saying a card is a certain condition. For example, I saw a 1991 Topps Chipper Jones RC (not the Desert Storm card) on E-Bay recently and the seller wanted $100 for it just because it was graded PSA 10. As most of you probably know, the market value for that card is only a few dollars at NMT. I could maybe understand the card going up a few dollars because it's in such high condition, but not from a few dollars to $100. That's just ridiculous. I really don't understand the need to grade a modern card anyway. The card isn't that old; it should be in NMT or MT condition. Why should you have to have a grading company tell you that?
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't have anything against grading companies. I just don't understand where the added value comes from.
0
Comments
For one, it reduces/eliminates (depending on the grading company) the grade of the card.
Second, there are many, many collectors who collect one player (I collect Wade Boggs, for instance) or one set (in my sig line, you'll see I collect 71 baseball and 85 football), who are willing to pay a premium for graded cards. Would a 1999 topps Boggs have any value otherwise?
I think card grading has saved the hobby from itself. With the flooding of the marketplace with seemingly endless amounts of game used and autographed stuff, grading cards allows collectors to zoom in on a particular segment of the hobby.
1) A person will pay more knowing that the card, in paticular vintage cards, has been authenticated and is not a fake.
2) A person is willing to pay more, because now it has been assigned a grade and they know what shape (grade) the card is in.
3) Each card graded by PSA depending on the grade is put into a population report and therefore a person will know how many PSA 9 1952 Mickey Mantles there are. I hate to compare them, but it is like each card is a numbered card. There are 3 1952 Mantles graded PSA 10 so if you have one you have a 1 of 3 card.
4) As stated before it is a piece of mind between seller that the card is authentic.
There are other reasons, but these are a few of my reasons.
Stingray
If you don't want to pay the prices realized, then stick with raw material as many have done. Everything
said above is true.
BTW: Cubby=Cub Fan
I don't know - trying to rationalize something that now is - is sort of like Clinton defining is?
Could you see explaining to a Martian why we take pieces of cardboard, entomb them in plastic and then pay money for them?
I would rather explain the the thermal coefficient of expansion and contraction to my cat Tabatha.
mike
<< <i>There are several reasons:
1) A person will pay more knowing that the card, in paticular vintage cards, has been authenticated and is not a fake. >>
Why pay more for an attribute that the card should have anyway? The book values are for authentic cards.
<< <i>2) A person is willing to pay more, because now it has been assigned a grade and they know what shape (grade) the card is in. >>
What ever happened to eyeballing a card and determining that for yourself?
<< <i>3) Each card graded by PSA depending on the grade is put into a population report and therefore a person will know how many PSA 9 1952 Mickey Mantles there are. I hate to compare them, but it is like each card is a numbered card. There are 3 1952 Mantles graded PSA 10 so if you have one you have a 1 of 3 card. >>
I could totally understand a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 10 bringing a premium. But, for an overproduced modern card or a mid to low grade non-HOFer vintage card to bring a premium, I don't understand.
Stingray >>
<< <i>Why pay more for an attribute that the card should have anyway? The book values are for authentic cards. >>
kng
One has a card authenticated, not for an attribute a card ought to have but for what the card does have - the grader is not authenticating the book value, it's telling you whether the card is real or not.
Some people are not good at that - some cards have fooled people who handle cards everyday for living.
mike
<< <i>Hello,
I just recently got back into this hobby, and this is my first post here. I have a question that's been bugging me: What's the deal with people paying more for graded cards? I fail to see how that adds any value to the cards at all. I've started to see this a lot, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, I think that should reinforce the book value because you have a professional grading company saying a card is a certain condition. For example, I saw a 1991 Topps Chipper Jones RC (not the Desert Storm card) on E-Bay recently and the seller wanted $100 for it just because it was graded PSA 10. As most of you probably know, the market value for that card is only a few dollars at NMT. I could maybe understand the card going up a few dollars because it's in such high condition, but not from a few dollars to $100. That's just ridiculous. I really don't understand the need to grade a modern card anyway. The card isn't that old; it should be in NMT or MT condition. Why should you have to have a grading company tell you that?
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't have anything against grading companies. I just don't understand where the added value comes from. >>
The added value is for the collector who has the desire to form a collection that is a certain condition. Having the cards graded verifies the condition. This verification also assures buyers that the grade is correct. The collector may wish to upgrade his set - the grade helps in the selling process.
On the other hand, many collect but do not have their cards graded. Perhaps they have no desire to sell their set in the future, nor are they interested in having someone verify their impression of the card's condition.
It's a matter of opinion and here we really do not force grading on anyone. I'm sure that a few non-graders will weigh in.
The card you mention is worth far more in a PSA10 than a 9 for exactly the reason you mention. It's modern and there are many more 9s out there, and collectors want the 10 because it's modern, not the 9.
Keith
Stingray
Try buying a few cards raw on ebay and sooner or later you will realize why people pay huge premiums for Third party graded cards.
Groucho Marx
A PSA 10 card truly is a rarity (yes, even for a set as overproduced as the one you mention). You can look at the population report and see just how few of any number of card there is in comparison to 8, 9, etc.
The book value you mention isn't what a PSA 10 should sell for...more often its what a 8 would go for. I think that's the biggest problem in this analogy: you are comparing a NM book value to the absolute best specimen of a card available. Why don't they book these absolute best in non-graded form? Because the number of these cards is truly minute in relation to the rest of the card population.
A perfect example of this: 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr. card. Easily one of the most widely available cards today, and should be easy to pick up one in 10 right? New(er) card, TONS of product, high quality card stock should all point to gobs and gobs of 10s floating around.
For the 48,762 graded versions of this card, only 1071 have made it into PSA 10 holders. That's just over 2% of the entire 48,000+ graded cards (give or take) that were deemed flawless.
PSA 10 cards are rare. They are valuable, even for a seemingly 'common' card (common in bulk, but ultra rare in 10 form).
As far as the Chipper Jones card, the percentage is a bit higher (2.6%), but only 52 of this card are out there (again, give or take a few).
<< <i>It really seems you are soured on the entire idea of graded cards. Not trying to point fingers, but several good reasons have been brought up why graded cards sell for a premium, and you seem to refute every one of them.
A PSA 10 card truly is a rarity (yes, even for a set as overproduced as the one you mention). You can look at the population report and see just how few of any number of card there is in comparison to 8, 9, etc.
The book value you mention isn't what a PSA 10 should sell for...more often its what a 8 would go for. I think that's the biggest problem in this analogy: you are comparing a NM book value to the absolute best specimen of a card available. Why don't they book these absolute best in non-graded form? Because the number of these cards is truly minute in relation to the rest of the card population.
A perfect example of this: 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr. card. Easily one of the most widely available cards today, and should be easy to pick up one in 10 right? New(er) card, TONS of product, high quality card stock should all point to gobs and gobs of 10s floating around.
For the 48,762 graded versions of this card, only 1071 have made it into PSA 10 holders. That's just over 2% of the entire 48,000+ graded cards (give or take) that were deemed flawless.
PSA 10 cards are rare. They are valuable, even for a seemingly 'common' card (common in bulk, but ultra rare in 10 form).
As far as the Chipper Jones card, the percentage is a bit higher (2.6%), but only 52 of this card are out there (again, give or take a few). >>
I see what you're saying. I actually didn't know that PSA 10's were so scarce. I guess I didn't realize this because I see them all the time on E-Bay, so I was like "What's the big deal"? From reading these responses, I can now see why people pay more for graded cards. I still don't agree with it, though. The whole "Gem Mint 10" thing just seems like a ploy to me. A mint card is supposed to be perfect, so how can you go any higher than that? What's next? Platinum mint?
<< <i>The whole "Gem Mint 10" thing just seems like a ploy to me. A mint card is supposed to be perfect, so how can you go any higher than that? What's next? Platinum mint? >>
That's what I've always wondered myself.
Tabe
There is another thing that needs to be taken into consideration. The Beckett price guide lists prices of vintage cards in NM condition. Those prices generally correspond to the PSA price guide for cards in NM (PSA 7) condition. Let's say a card according to Beckett price guide is worth $50 in NM, which is the price Beckett lists. The same card, in the PSA price guide lists as $55 in a PSA 7 holder ($5 extra to know I'm getting an unaltered card which is truly in NM). The PSA 8 of the card is listed at $85, the PSA 9 at $150. You are paying a premium for a card in higher condition. Prices are not even given for vintage cards in PSA 10 because they are so rare, therefore, there is no set market for them.
Most ultra-modern cards (1987-present), depending on the card, unless they are in PSA 10 holders, are not worth much and probably never will be.
it does not have to be perfect to be considered mint.
As fpr gem mint, even those are allowed a flaw. I doubt any card is truly perfect.
<< <i>There's so much you don't see from simply eyeballing a card that shows up when you examine the same card under a bright light with a 10 power magnifier. Especially when it comes to vintage cards. Finding vintage cards in high grade is not that easy. Production inconsistency and flaws, packaging and shipping, followed by handling and decades of storage all attribute to wear on a card. A PSA 10 is a card that is virtually free of any flaws. The majority of vintage cards you see in raw condition on eBay are anywhere from PSA 4 to 6. Many of higher quality vintage cards you see on eBay, especially ones that have any sort of value, are trimmed or altered in some capacity. The problem: it is common practice for a seller on eBay to simply call the card whatever grade they want, to try to sell it for more money. It's quite easy to find a card listed by the seller as being in mint condition. A close look at that card may reveal that a corner or two may be blunted, edges may be chipped, the surface may be scuffed or scratched, it may have surface wrinkles that the picture will not reveal, it may even have a crease. Very seldom is the card truly mint as claimed.
There is another thing that needs to be taken into consideration. The Beckett price guide lists prices of vintage cards in NM condition. Those prices generally correspond to the PSA price guide for cards in NM (PSA 7) condition. Let's say a card according to Beckett price guide is worth $50 in NM, which is the price Beckett lists. The same card, in the PSA price guide lists as $55 in a PSA 7 holder ($5 extra to know I'm getting an unaltered card which is truly in NM). The PSA 8 of the card is listed at $85, the PSA 9 at $150. You are paying a premium for a card in higher condition. Prices are not even given for vintage cards in PSA 10 because they are so rare, therefore, there is no set market for them.
Most ultra-modern cards (1987-present), depending on the card, unless they are in PSA 10 holders, are not worth much and probably never will be. >>
I agree with you to an extent. High grade vintage cards should bring premiums. But, I see mid to low grade vintage cards going for premiums. The only reason they're bringing premiums is because they're graded. Because of this, I can't afford most vintage cards that I want.
<< <i>The solution is to buy all raw cards. Keep in mind that this is a huge risk when purchasing cards on ebay though. >>
Not just on ebay.
These trimmed/altered/reprinted cards come from somewhere, and there are dealers out there who peddle this junk at their shops and at shows as well.
An independent third-party grading company virtually assures a genuine, unaltered card with a certain grade.
This is an example of what I'm talking about:1955 Topps Billy Herman
How in the hell did this card sell for that much? I realize that the card is the only PSA 9, but that isn't going to add $2000+ dollars to it.
<< <i>Yeah. I guess that's what I'm going to have to do.
This is an example of what I'm talking about:1955 Topps Billy Herman
How in the hell did this card sell for that much? I realize that the card is the only PSA 9, but that isn't going to add $2000+ dollars to it. >>
kng
No one is going to argue that the card is expensive but there may be other factors working there - a couple of registry set guys may be fighting over it. This will drive the price up and also the population report on the card - as much as you would like to believe that there are a ton of 9 commons out there - the pop reports say differently on them.
mike
If you can't afford mid-grade vintage cards in graded holders because you feel the price premium for graded cards is too high, you are going to set yourself up for nothing but disappointment and headache buying raw off eBay, unless you simply don't care about the condition, and that cards that are declared as NM by the seller are actually EX or less. It's amazing how many sellers purposely forget to mention creases or surface wrinkles in the description of a raw card, and how many more state that the card has sharp corners. Rarely is surface condition even mentioned, but if you look at the surface of most vintage cards, you will find wear.
Your best bet, if you can't afford the card you want, save up until you can afford it, don't settle for less. This hobby is all about quality, not quantity. Also consider that if a card is graded, at some point, someone spent a minimum of $6 to get it graded. Right there is a small premium, but well worth paying extra for.
You can fight grading and the premium a graded card commands until you're blue in the face, many people have and still are, but the bottom line is that the hobby has evolved, and this is the accepted standard and it's not going to change anytime in the near future.
Hypothetical questions for you... if you owned a beautiful card, let's call it a 1969 Topps Carl Yastrzemski, which happens to be a difficult card to find in high grade... and your card would grade as a PSA 8 NM-MT... would you spend $12 to grade it if you wanted to sell it? Typically the card in PSA 8 sells for around $300. The same card being sold raw and called NM-MT would sell for under $100. Which would you rather have as a seller? Let's say you could afford to spend $300 on cards. Which would you rather have as a buyer, the PSA 8 or 3 raw cards that the sellers call NM-MT? But don't forget that a raw card called NM-MT by the seller could be anything from VG-EX to NM-MT, and there's a chance the card could have been trimmed or recolored.
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
<< <i>
<< <i>Yeah. I guess that's what I'm going to have to do.
This is an example of what I'm talking about:1955 Topps Billy Herman
How in the hell did this card sell for that much? I realize that the card is the only PSA 9, but that isn't going to add $2000+ dollars to it. >>
kng
No one is going to argue that the card is expensive but there may be other factors working there - a couple of registry set guys may be fighting over it. This will drive the price up and also the population report on the card - as much as you would like to believe that there are a ton of 9 commons out there - the pop reports say differently on them.
mike >>
I didn't think about the card registry. That very well could be the reason. Maybe a couple of set collectors with too much money were fighting for the card. But , what's to say that there aren't other mint copies of the card out there? I'm pretty sure every 55 Topps Billy Herman card hasn't been graded.
<< <i>
Hypothetical questions for you... if you owned a beautiful card, let's call it a 1969 Topps Carl Yastrzemski, which happens to be a difficult card to find in high grade... and your card would grade as a PSA 8 NM-MT... would you spend $12 to grade it if you wanted to sell it? Typically the card in PSA 8 sells for around $300. The same card being sold raw and called NM-MT would sell for under $100. Which would you rather have as a seller? Let's say you could afford to spend $300 on cards. Which would you rather have as a buyer, the PSA 8 or 3 raw cards that the sellers call NM-MT? But don't forget that a raw card called NM-MT by the seller could be anything from VG-EX to NM-MT, and there's a chance the card could have been trimmed or recolored. >>
I would get it graded. I don't really blame sellers for doing that because who doesn't want to get the most money for their product. I just wish the state of the market wasn't like that.
I do buy some graded cards however, but only if they're comparable in condition to the others in my sets, and if I can get them for the same, or less, as I would be willing to pay in ungraded form.
In otherwords, you can still collect, without playing the graded card game. I personally know very few collectors who are graded card moguls.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05