Playing with the pop reports, what's getting graded?

DHeath

What's getting submitted to PCGS more often, Peace dollars or Ikes? If you guessed Ikes, you're wrong. Since April 2002, there have been 28,352 MS Peace dollars submitted. During the same period of time, there have been 19,065 MS Ikes submitted.

Moderns or classics? Classics by a wide margin. There have been more Morgans alone submitted than ALL COINS 1964 TO DATE (including bullion and State Quarters). Morgans graded, 1,652,864. PCGS has graded approximately 10,241,000 coins to date based on their last quarter's results. 1964 to date represents less than 1.5 million.

Maybe if I get a little time tomorrow, I'll pie chart the submissions by category since the 02 report. Might be illuminating.

michael

morgans are not classic coins
classic coins are pre 1835 coinage

DHeath

Michael, I like the steam press delineation, but personally, I think of moderns as beginning in 1941. JMO

Russ

<< <i>PCGS has graded approximately 10,241,000 coins to date based on their last quarter's results. 1964 to date represents less than 1.5 million. >>



This can't possibly be true. Everybody knows it's the modern crap that's clogging up the system.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

The coins minted since 1835 probably ARE clogging up the system.

nwcs

Personally, I think every coin after the end of the Holy Roman Empire to be modern.

centmaster

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS has graded approximately 10,241,000 coins to date based on their last quarter's results. 1964 to date represents less than 1.5 million. >>



This may or may not be true, but don't forget that PCGS refused to grade any post 1964 coin until 10 years ago, when the 95 double die penny came out, so the figures are skewed.

keets

..................let the disinformation and the denials begin. but, but, but................................

itsnotjustme

Neat work Dave. I once did some comparison and posted about it, showing how Morgans outstripped moderns for total coins graded. I think I was also refuting those who claimed MS65/66/67 Ikes were a dime a dozen, unlike Morgan Dollars.

291fifth

In spite of the years of their mintage, most Morgan and Peace dollars should be considered "moderns" so far as submissions are concerned. Why? The great majority were not released to the public until 1962-3. Huge numbers of unopened bags of these coins probably still exist.

LucyBop

my 55 Belair is a Classic!

nwcs

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS has graded approximately 10,241,000 coins to date based on their last quarter's results. 1964 to date represents less than 1.5 million. >>



This may or may not be true, but don't forget that PCGS refused to grade any post 1964 coin until 10 years ago, when the 95 double die penny came out, so the figures are skewed. >>

You are thinking of NGC. I have seen a 1982 no P dime in a 1st gen PCGS holder.

DHeath

There have been 22,953 MS Buffalos graded since the 2002 published pop report, and 20,570 MS Kennedies, despite three years of additional mintage for the Kennedys during that time. Total population graded for the Kennedy series in MS is 36,867 pieces. The total pop of just the 1923-P Peace dollars is 91,811.

There are almost twice as many 1923-P Peace dollars holdered than the entire MS Ike population. There are twice as many 1887-P Morgans graded than the entire holdered MS Kennedy population. Walker numbers have increased by 30,731 since the 2002 report, while MS Kennedys have only increased by 20,570. There are 250,545 Walkers holdered. Thats a ratio of 7 to 1 to Kennedys in terms of total population holdered.

Interesting read.

majorbigtime

<< <i>

<< <i> Everybody knows it's the modern crap that's clogging up the system.

>>





Ahah! An admission by the self-styled King of Kennedys!! Even the King seemingly acknowledges moderns are a bunch of crap, or pocket change as I prefer!!

Oh well, to each his or her own. Some get a bone when a coin has a tone, while others become excited over accented hair. I'll take classic US coins any day of the week, but some think I'm a geek!

wam98

Very interesting, thanks.

cladking

<< <i>In spite of the years of their mintage, most Morgan and Peace dollars should be considered "moderns" so far as submissions are concerned. Why? The great majority were not released to the public until 1962-3. Huge numbers of unopened bags of these coins probably still exist. >>



This makes them more similar to some of the ultramoderns. While there are some moderns (like 1975 cents)
which exist in substantial numbers in rolls and bags, most do not. It is this very fact which defines moderns
since not all of these were debased in 1965 or had their designs changed in 1998.

cladking

<< <i>



Ahah! An admission by the self-styled King of Kennedys!! Even the King seemingly acknowledges moderns are a bunch of crap, or pocket change as I prefer!!

Oh well, to each his or her own. Some get a bone when a coin has a tone, while others become excited over accented hair. I'll take classic US coins any day of the week, but some think I'm a geek! >>



We modern guys have been listening to the classic collectors. Of course moderns are crap!

Now if we could just get a few of the classic collectors to listen to us...

DMWJR

This is a very interesting read.

I don't have any experience with bulk modern submissions, but don't some submitters send in a boatload of coins and have PCGS only certify those above a certain grade? If so, wouldn't that mean that there are a large number of coins that have been graded, but don't show up in the pops? Wouldn't they most likely be moderns instead of classics?

DHeath

In the Q & A, David Hall recently estimated the PCGS submissions were 75-80% dealer submissions. My guess is that the large majority of these submissions are not modern by my definition. My hunch is that the 20-25% collector based submissions account for most of the moderns submitted. Most dealers believe they can't sell them, so I doubt they spend much energy holdering them. Most holdered modern numbers are tiny, relatively speaking. Collectors are likely submitting the lions share.

DHeath

Doug, I don't know the answer to that, but I'll ask in the Q & A for my own knowledge. I know to get the bulk rate, a certain percentage of the coins must holder, and my guess is that the no grade number is fairly small, but not insignificant. The numbers I used are from the pop reports.

RYK

Ahah! An admission by the self-styled King of Kennedys!! Even the King seemingly acknowledges moderns are a bunch of crap, or pocket change as I prefer!!

Oh well, to each his or her own. Some get a bone when a coin has a tone, while others become excited over accented hair. I'll take classic US coins any day of the week, but some think I'm a geek!

I do not consider you to be a geek. That would be way too complimentary.

I also prefer classic coins but have learned to peacefully coexist with my modern friends without trashing them. You should try the same.

Edited to add: I have also learned quite a bit from my modern friends. They are as bright, energetic, and enthusiastic as any coin collectors I know. I wish I had their "eye" and their patience. I will occasionally dig them, but they know it is in jest, and they usually make me eat my words.

Russ

<< <i>This may or may not be true, but don't forget that PCGS refused to grade any post 1964 coin until 10 years ago, when the 95 double die penny came out, so the figures are skewed. >>

You are thinking of NGC. I have seen a 1982 no P dime in a 1st gen PCGS holder. >>



That's correct. PCGS has graded moderns all along. It's NGC that was late to the party.

Russ, NCNE

oilydog

I find this thread very informative and interesting to read!

roadrunner

There have been 22,953 MS Buffalos graded since the 2002 published pop report, and 20,570 MS Kennedies, despite three years of additional mintage for the Kennedys during that time. Total population graded for the Kennedy series in MS is 36,867 pieces. The total pop of just the 1923-P Peace dollars is 91,811.

I think the reasons for the higher #'s of buffs and Peace dollars are

1. The older coins are more saleable/liquid as a rule (exceptions
abound - this refers to the majority only)
2. The older coins tend to be worth more on average.

Most Kennedy's or other moderns in existence are either worth face value (clad) or silver melt. Not so for Peace dollars or Buffs where every one is worth over face value or melt. The Kennedy's (for this example) are just not submitted in qty for those very reasons.
If every Kennedy was worth a minimum of $24 as is BU Morgan,
you'd bet every UNC would get submitted at some point.

Mintage has little to do with. Rather it's value and profit potential.

roadrunner

BowTieCoins

I make a living putting Lincoln's, mostly memorials in slabs

segoja

That's a lot of Ikes.

I'm surprised the number is that close to Peace Dollars.

Does that mean that Ikes are picking up in popularity???

DHeath

Sego, thats not ALL peace dollars, just the 23-P. The total holdered MS Peace dollar pop is 257,000 coins. The total holdered MS Ike pop is 52,548. The total holdered pop for the 23-P is 91,811.

BowTie, you're the exception rather than the rule, and I think its good business.

RR, you're absolutely right. Its the potential resale that determines whats submitted.