84 Fleer Update Clemens Vs. Puckett

Axtell

Similar to my thread about the Griffey and Big Unit, but we know these cards are available in EXACTLY the same number.

The main reason I deduced from the posts on the upper deck thread was sluggers outsell pitchers, but is this a case of Clemen's perceived greatness to be that much more than Puckett (who I think many presume to have gotten into the hall on his 'nice guy' image and not so much on numbers?)

Just curious...these types of things interest me how much variation there can be within the same set of HoF calibur players.

lawnmowerman

I really feel bad what happened to Puckett. His numbers obviuosly would have been much better. The rockett has been blessed with the tools and health for a long career and I am happy for him.

Matt

BigRedMachine

Axtell,
I didn't think these two were printed in EXACTLY the same numbers. The 84 fleer update came out around Christmas of 84 and didn't make a huge splash. There may be as many psa 9 and 10's available (i don't know, I haven't checked the pop. report), but there aren't as many 84 fleer update cards available as there is 89 upper deck.
Of course, the 84 fleer update was only available in factory form if I'm not mistaken.

The other difference is Puckett is hardly a slugger. The conversation may be different if McGwire's RC or a Bonds RC was in this set. But Puckett is comparing apples to oranges. On top of that, Tim Kirkjan (spelling?) of ESPN recently rated Roger Clemens as the third best pitcher of ALL TIME. Never mind how he might of come up with that, but the perception of Clemens is not hardly that of Randy Johnson. Not in my mind anyway.

BTW, love your posts when you get me ranting and raving and thinking. I'm sure I'm usually wrong but it sounds good in my head while I'm typing.

CDsNuts

I think he meant that there are as many 84 Clemens as there are 84 Pucketts, not comparing the 84 Fleer update to 89 Upper Deck. The answer to that question in my eyes is that Clemens has had a fairly injury-free career and as he keeps chugging along and breaking records he gains more of a following and his cards go up. Puckett's career was cut short, and then his mistress told of his exploits, his wife divorced him, and then he was drunk in a restaurant and attacked a woman in the bathroom. I think Clemens last 7 years were a little better than Puckett's and his cards have enjoyed a steady incline becuase of it.

I would compare Clemens' rise to that of Ryan who continued to be effective in his later years and people start to realize what an amazing career they've had. Ryan's cards only started to hit the big numbers when he threw his 7th no hitter in 90 (?). I'm not saying Clemens is as good- that's another debate and I was never a huge fan of either guy. But not many pitchers have had success for 2 decades and the ones who have are worth more in collector's eyes.

As a side note, anybody remember when Rickey Henderson broke the SB record and proclaimed himself as the greatest baseball on that day, then that night Ryan threw a no hitter in his 40s making Henderson look like an egotistical a$$? Classic.

Lee

donnnster

RedMachine- I think Axtell was saying that there are an equal number of puckett vs. clemens cards because they made an exact number of 1984 fleer update sets(he is not comparing UD to 84 fleer update). I grew up watching both these guys and am still amazed at how dominating clemens still is. Puckett wasn't too bad when he was in his prime either(I remember watchin many highlite reels with him scaling the fence and taking away definite HRs). But at the end if you rank the two based on their positions, Clemens ranks as one of the greatest pitchers while Puckett will be much further down the list if you try to rank the outfielders.

looks like CDsNuts beat me to it...

RedHeart54

Clemens has also played in large media markets his whole career- Boston, NY, Toronto, and now Houston. Puckett (like Killebrew) played in Minnesota, a much smaller market. There's no doubt what a large media market will do for a player's card popularity.

NDFootballFan

Kirby is still one of my favorite players of all time. I remember how he willed the Twins to win in Game 6 in the 1991 WS. His early retirement at 34 hurt his career numbers. He was a lock for 3000 hits prior to the injury. The funny thing is that in 1995 you would have ranked Kirby much higher than Roger in terms of all time greats. Roger was in the middle of a tough stretch in his career where he had 9-11 wins and a ERA 4.00+.

BigRedMachine

Okay, I get it, sorry.

But this much is still true. Clemens may be one of the top five pitchers of all time.

Puckett is not one of the 100 greatest sluggers, or even players, of all time. (Even though I thought he was great).

So I'm still confused as to why there would be a question as to why the Clemens is a better seller than Puckett.

zef204

Just for the record:


8 8Q 9 9Q 10 TOT
U-27 ROGER CLEMENS 1 5 14 29 122 2 1167 49 1200 92 159 2840
U-93 KIRBY PUCKETT 0 0 4 15 77 2 728 38 782 89 113 1848

zef204

didn't come out right

sorry.


from right to left is total,10,9Q,9,8q,8

Twinsthreepeat

Hey, why does everybody always pick on the short fat kid.

I am a huge puckett fan and have been since 86. He will always be a Minnesota superstar. Puckett Led the league in hits four years three of which were consecutive. I also believe he was the quickest player to reach 2000 hits. And I think he ended up with only 3 season where he batted under 300.

Axtell

<< <i>Okay, I get it, sorry.

But this much is still true. Clemens may be one of the top five pitchers of all time.

Puckett is not one of the 100 greatest sluggers, or even players, of all time. (Even though I thought he was great).

So I'm still confused as to why there would be a question as to why the Clemens is a better seller than Puckett. >>



I think what stands out in my mind of these 4 cards (89 UD griffey and unit, 84 fleer u clemens and puckett) is that the big unit card is severely underpriced, isn't it?

Would most people argue that RJ is one of the most dominating, best pitchers of all time? 5 Cy Young awards, 4000+ Ks, .650+ winning percentage, his only knock being he more than likely won't get to 300 wins.

Or is the lack of his playing many years in a big market THAT much of a card depressor?

DirtyHarry

Nothing brilliant here on my part.....but my take is that like most everything else there will be a market correction, basis demand, in the near future. Dump Kirby now....take a short term hold position on Griffey....and buy up Clemens and RJ. IMO. Regards.

Axtell

Tell me if you all think these are prices I should be looking to buy at:

1989 upper deck:

griffey 10 $250
johnson 10 $70

1984 fleer update:

clemens 9 $300
puckett 10 $50

The only 10 clemens that's completed in the past 2 weeks closed at $1500 and there's no way I'm paying that kind of coin

goudeygold

As much as I think modern is a poor investment, the 84 fleer update is an exception. It is a true short printed set with many great cards. Even at that though, there are plenty to be had so be patient. In the long run I would think unopened factory sets have a good shot at appreciating simply for scarcity though.

puckett will never go up anymore, don't waste your money there. He is retired, and forgotten by the current generation.
the griffy jr UD is going to be the next 87 fleer Bonds. Everything thinks they will go up, then the floodgates open and doooooown goes the price. You see what the 8s and 9s are bringing now? OUCH.

GG

Axtell

<< <i>As much as I think modern is a poor investment, the 84 fleer update is an exception. It is a true short printed set with many great cards. Even at that though, there are plenty to be had so be patient. In the long run I would think unopened factory sets have a good shot at appreciating simply for scarcity though.

puckett will never go up anymore, don't waste your money there. He is retired, and forgotten by the current generation.
the griffy jr UD is going to be the next 87 fleer Bonds. Everything thinks they will go up, then the floodgates open and doooooown goes the price. You see what the 8s and 9s are bringing now? OUCH.

GG >>



I have to agree with you on the UD stuff. There must be thousands and thousands of cases of this stuff sitting unopened...and I have been contemplating whether or not just ripping a few boxes would be a better investment.

The fleer update is what scares me. It's been popular since it came out, first for the doc gooden, now with the clemens. I haven't seen an unopened set on ebay since I've been looking for what, a year? And I can only imagine the type of coin that would bring.

The puckett I wouldn't be buying for investment purposes, but more for the HoF registry. I suppose you are right through, it will continue to depreciate in value.

Thanks for the insight...I suppose of these 4 the only one I am actively looking for is the clemens.

goudeygold

unfortunately clemens is still riding high... i've still been considering getting a 84 fleer gooden since he was the shiznit back in the day. I never could afford the card in his prime, but i'm sure I could now.

good luck with your endeavor, but again 84 fleer is heavily reprinted so raw is tough, which ultimately squeezes your profit potential a bit.

i'm gonna go look for that gooden now...

GG

DirtyHarry

Ax - Looks like you have come to the logical conclusion. Check recent sales on Ebay, average them out, and bid accordingly on a Clemens Fleer in the condition you want.. I obtained an 84 Fleer update set about ten years ago in a trade, and guess what ---when I opened it up two years ago... the Clemens card was at best 30-70 centering. So don't hold out on a good price for a set - no guarantees.

Your UD commentary is right on. There is a million unopened packs floating around to pull an RJ from. Regards.

BigRedMachine

<< <i>Hey, why does everybody always pick on the short fat kid.

I am a huge puckett fan and have been since 86. He will always be a Minnesota superstar. Puckett Led the league in hits four years three of which were consecutive. I also believe he was the quickest player to reach 2000 hits. And I think he ended up with only 3 season where he batted under 300. >>



Nothing against Kirby, I like him too. But it sounds like you're talking about Wade Boggs. My only point was Puckett is hardly considered one of the games great "sluggers".

Now that I see your point Axtell, I agree with you. But the market is adjusting. Griffey was the number one overall pick so you know his cards will start higher than that of the Big Units. But like I've posted before, I was fortunate enough to buy a raw Griffey UD from my local card shop for $40 (half high book is the guys MO) and sent it to PSA and got a 10 back. It sold on the bay for $515, and that was less than two years ago. So right now $250 sounds like a good deal. Of course, he homered again today so he's well over 500 for his career and is still just 36 or 37 I think. 600 not out of the question, and if/when he approaches, the card will rise again, rare or not.

As for Johnson, yeah, he's a stud. But the card started at nothing. It's like the sleeper in a college football preseason poll.......they'll never get to number 1. Griffey started at #1 so he has some room for error.

Brian48

Well, Puckett's image was also tarnished a bit when people realized he was not the nice teddy bear that everyone perceived him to be. All the stories of him being a wife beating a-hole doesn't exactly buy a lot of points on the popularity scale.

Clemens, well, it's hard to look down on 7 Cy Youngs.

DeutscherGeist

buying the 1984 Fleer Update set unopened is only worthwhile if you plan on keeping it closed. Once you open it, it is only worth the condition of the cards--there is no guarantee that the centering will be good, much less the corners.

I am sure demand for Griffey will grow if he continues to stay healthy, but the market will also be flooded with more graded Griffeys too, so it will break even.

only $50 for a 84 FU PSA 10 Puckett? I don't think there is anymore room for it to go down. That's very low. I have seen Dwight Gooden sell for that much.

Axtell

<< <i>buying the 1984 Fleer Update set unopened is only worthwhile if you plan on keeping it closed. Once you open it, it is only worth the condition of the cards--there is no guarantee that the centering will be good, much less the corners.

I am sure demand for Griffey will grow if he continues to stay healthy, but the market will also be flooded with more graded Griffeys too, so it will break even.

only $50 for a 84 FU PSA 10 Puckett? I don't think there is anymore room for it to go down. That's very low. I have seen Dwight Gooden sell for that much. >>



The $50 is for a 9 Puckett...10s sell for $150+.

DeutscherGeist

"The $50 is for a 9 Puckett...10s sell for $150+."

That sounds more right. However, a Doc Gooden PSA 10 sold for $200 dollars on ebay. You can still find it in completed items.

Gooden is a pitcher, yet sells for more than Puckett in this situation. I am sure the Gooden PSA 9 still goes for around $50.

Some non-HOFers sell real well too. Strawberry and Canseco still sell well because many people could not afford them when they were $100 and this is their chance to capture their memories.

goudeygold

And I almost forgot about Puckett grabbing that womans juggs in the bathroom some years ago. I think he was just having trouble seeing out of those bad eyes and was feeling around... ya think?

GG

DeutscherGeist

GG,

I think if Puckett was on the Ballot right now, he would not get in. His prices reflect that.