<< <i>This actually happend about 18 months ago, and it's documented. A seller on eBay who also runs their own certification service bought a PCGS AU55 1934-S Peace Dollar for just under $800. Three weeks later it turned up in one of his slabs as a MS63 on eBay, where it sold for $3000. Would you consider this seller criminally responsible? >>
Does anyone dare post the documentation of that eBay auction from 18 months ago, or at least wish to name the seller's eBay ID or the name of his grading service?
As others have posted, it is quite possible for a PCGS AU-58 coin to cross as an MS-63 at a somewat respectable grading service, but a PCGS AU-55 should have obvious points of wear. I read the question as asking whether self-slabbers are fraudulent in describing a circulated coin as uncirculated and reselling it for uncirculated money. I voted yes, but this happens all too frequently.
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
I was about to say that it's no different that putting it in a cardboard 2x2 and writing MS63 with a pen, then succeeding in getting someone to pay $3000 for it, but the kicker here to me is that it's promoted as being in a third-party slab (something that is intended to impart impartiality ingrading), when it's really a first-party slab (a fancy cardboard 2x2 with an aggressive grade on it).
I see arguments that grading is subjective, which, of course, it is. This argument breaks down when you look at the definitions of the grades in question. AU55 means not mint state (shows signs of wear). MS63 means uncirculated (full luster, no signs of wear). Saying that the difference between the two can be subjective is like saying one can sort of be a virgin. Had the coin in question been upgraded from EF45 to AU53 or from MS61 to MS63, then the subjectivity argument could be used. Since the grader crossed one of the few objective lines there are in grading, it is much easier to demonstrate that the coin is not graded correctly. Since the grader/seller sold a coin as an uncirculated coin, which it demonstrably is not, and which the seller knew was not, and the buyer paid for an uncirculated coin he didn't receive, the seller perpetrated fraud onto the buyer in the eyes of this engineering lab, and would be sentenced to 7-10 years in quality assurance preparing for process audits.
Very well put John. Subjectivity can be used as a defense when we're talking about MS64 vs MS66, but it is no defense between AU55 and MS63. And most of us know that. And so will this seller shortly.
Actually ( IMHO) the difference between a very high grade AU and a low grade MS is not less thin than the difference between a MS 65 and 66. In addition I find the fraudulent intention of a hustler writing over a slabbed coin label a higher grade to sell on E-Bay, no less repugnant than a world renown auction house overgrading a raw coin in catalogue.
Hmmm - I once had a nice PCGS AU58 1938-D Walker that went up to MS64 upon crackout. And I know of a few bust dollars that have gone from mid AU to low MS at top tier services.
These days the line between high AU and low MS is really, really thin.
<< <i>Subjectivity can be used as a defense when we're talking about MS64 vs MS66, but it is no defense between AU55 and MS63. And most of us know that. And so will this seller shortly. >>
If the person you are referring to is an "expert" at grading coins (they have presented themselves as an expert) and they misrepresent the value of coins in such a gross manor, they are guilty of mail fraud. There is no subjectivity issue. This is the type of crime the Feds love to sink their teeth into, interstate mail fraud.
If I buy a coin in a marked-with-grade 2x2 (someone's opinion of grade) and then "slab" the coin at a higher grade myself (my opinion of the coin's grade) is that fraud?
I would say the seller who is subject of this thread is okay IF he offers a generous return privilege with essentially full money back if the buyer decides he doesn't want the coin.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>If I buy a coin in a marked-with-grade 2x2 (someone's opinion of grade) and then "slab" the coin at a higher grade myself (my opinion of the coin's grade) is that fraud?
I would say the seller who is subject of this thread is okay IF he offers a generous return privilege with essentially full money back if the buyer decides he doesn't want the coin. >>
For further clarification, this coin when it was sold in the seller's slab on eBay, the following was in the auction:
Comments
<< <i>This actually happend about 18 months ago, and it's documented. A seller on eBay who also runs their own certification service bought a PCGS AU55 1934-S Peace Dollar for just under $800. Three weeks later it turned up in one of his slabs as a MS63 on eBay, where it sold for $3000. Would you consider this seller criminally responsible?
>>
Does anyone dare post the documentation of that eBay auction from 18 months ago, or at least wish to name the seller's eBay ID or the name of his grading service?
As others have posted, it is quite possible for a PCGS AU-58 coin to cross as an MS-63 at a somewat respectable grading service, but a PCGS AU-55 should have obvious points of wear. I read the question as asking whether self-slabbers are fraudulent in describing a circulated coin as uncirculated and reselling it for uncirculated money. I voted yes, but this happens all too frequently.
<< <i>Has the seller committed a crime? >>
Yes.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
I see arguments that grading is subjective, which, of course, it is. This argument breaks down when you look at the definitions of the grades in question. AU55 means not mint state (shows signs of wear). MS63 means uncirculated (full luster, no signs of wear). Saying that the difference between the two can be subjective is like saying one can sort of be a virgin. Had the coin in question been upgraded from EF45 to AU53 or from MS61 to MS63, then the subjectivity argument could be used. Since the grader crossed one of the few objective lines there are in grading, it is much easier to demonstrate that the coin is not graded correctly. Since the grader/seller sold a coin as an uncirculated coin, which it demonstrably is not, and which the seller knew was not, and the buyer paid for an uncirculated coin he didn't receive, the seller perpetrated fraud onto the buyer in the eyes of this engineering lab, and would be sentenced to 7-10 years in quality assurance preparing for process audits.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
In addition I find the fraudulent intention of a hustler writing over a slabbed coin label a higher grade to sell on E-Bay, no less repugnant than a world renown auction house overgrading a raw coin in catalogue.
Hmmm - I once had a nice PCGS AU58 1938-D Walker that went up to MS64 upon crackout. And I know of a few bust dollars that have gone from mid AU to low MS at top tier services.
These days the line between high AU and low MS is really, really thin.
<< <i>Subjectivity can be used as a defense when we're talking about MS64 vs MS66, but it is no defense between AU55 and MS63. And most of us know that. And so will this seller shortly. >>
If the person you are referring to is an "expert" at grading coins (they have presented themselves as an expert) and they misrepresent the value of coins in such a gross manor, they are guilty of mail fraud. There is no subjectivity issue. This is the type of crime the Feds love to sink their teeth into, interstate mail fraud.
I would say the seller who is subject of this thread is okay IF he offers a generous return privilege with essentially full money back if the buyer decides he doesn't want the coin.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>If I buy a coin in a marked-with-grade 2x2 (someone's opinion of grade) and then "slab" the coin at a higher grade myself (my opinion of the coin's grade) is that fraud?
I would say the seller who is subject of this thread is okay IF he offers a generous return privilege with essentially full money back if the buyer decides he doesn't want the coin. >>
For further clarification, this coin when it was sold in the seller's slab on eBay, the following was in the auction:
"No returns on third party graded coins"