Home› Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum

What's this crap?

BigRedMachineBigRedMachine Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
Here we go again.....

"PSA" card

I know this was talked about in a previous thread, but the big question was never answered. How can we pay top dollar for PSA "certified" cards when the scammers are ahead of the game?

Who do you think is buying this one and will they be so up front when it's sold again?

Someone set my mind at ease. If you've EVER bought a PSA card, not one you've sent in yourself, then this has to concern you.

Comments

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,035 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Web definitions for COUNTERFEITING
    [trademark]. The act of producing or selling a product containing an intentional and calculated reproduction of a genuine trademark. A “counterfeit mark” is identical to or substantially indistinguishable from a genuine mark. Often, counterfeit goods are made to imitate a popular product in construction and appearance so as to deceive customers into thinking they are purchasing the genuine merchandise.

    I think a DA would say that ebay lot meets this definition. This seller is just asking for legal trouble.

  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    And some fools already have it bid up to 35.00
  • jrdolanjrdolan Posts: 2,549 ✭✭
    That's about the smallest scan I've seen for an eBay auction. No doubt it's tiny because up close, the case is obviously cracked and the card is obviously fake.

    The scary thing is that this may just be one botched attempt to put a counterfeit card into a PSA slab. He may have succeeded in resealing other fake, trimmed, or low-grade cards in PSA holders with less evident proof of the crime. I would not buy anything from this seller at any price.
  • PeetiePeetie Posts: 627 ✭✭
    Geez, look at the number of PSA mantles he has already sold as novelties.

    completed listings

  • StingrayStingray Posts: 8,843 ✭✭✭
    Take a look, the card does not even fit in the holder correctly it is too big for the holder. What a tard!

    Stingray
  • StingrayStingray Posts: 8,843 ✭✭✭
    Correction, maybe the card is in the holder correctly, but what is that line that I see running across the top of the card? I thought that was were the top of the holder part was?
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    Bigredmachine,

    what could PSA do about it?

    or for that matter what could SGC or GAI do if it happenned to them?

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    (not marked reprint) in an altered psa case (label

    is not marked reprint either).




    nice
    Good for you.
  • BigRedMachineBigRedMachine Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Bigredmachine,

    what could PSA do about it?

    or for that matter what could SGC or GAI do if it happenned to them? >>



    Perhaps there is nothing they can do. Surely someone smarter than I am can come up with something though. I could come up with several dumb ideas but my point is this......

    If it gets to the point where there are MANY psa fakes out there, all of our cards will be basically worthless. That may sound extreme to all of you but the drive behind the prices of graded cards is KNOWING you have an authentic card in a certain grade. That's obvious when trying to by ungraded verses graded on eBay. So once that's gone, so are the prices.

    I'd like to think for one thing they would step up their effort in finding and perhaps prosecuting these people. They can't be that hard to locate. And they are indeed committing several crimes. Why let them hide behind a computer and get away with it?
  • julen23julen23 Posts: 4,558 ✭✭
    "There is a sucker born every minute"
    PT Barnum

    Julen
    _____
    image
    RIP GURU
  • Mac53Mac53 Posts: 805 ✭


    << <i>If it gets to the point where there are MANY psa fakes out there, all of our cards will be basically worthless. >>



    Exactly. Certainly, the ebay market will dry up. Being in a PSA holder resolves many concerns that come with on-line auctions, ie, not seeing the card in person, not having the eye or the knowledge about them, etc.
    "Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well."image
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought there was a "tamper evident" feature to the PSA holders.

    He does state that it is a novelty and the prices he is getting are not that high. I would be more concerned if this ended up in a legitimate auction and the bad press it would receive.
    Mike
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    You know, I am a big fan of PSA and graded cards in general but, we collectors can not depend on a particular grader's opinion all the time.

    PSA its basically a good line of defense agaisnt scams, reprints and doctored cards.

    however collectors also need to work hard at understanding how to grade raw cards and also how to spot alterations and reprints.

    Some bad cards do fall thought in grading rooms, of all companies, we need to be able to pick those cards and see whats wrong with them and hopefully make our case and have the particular grading company buy back the doctored card.

    The grading part is subjective and lots of people with have different opinions on a grade, but a doctored card is white and black.

    In any hobby, or actually most things that involve money there will be lots of people trying to take advantage of you. As a consumer you must be skeptical and wary of things that look to good to be true.

    Also some reputable dealers will work on prices and help you with free advice and keeping an eye out for cards that might interest you. The small premium you pay to a dealer vs ebay might save you a lot of headaches in the future.



    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    Personally, I've felt this for a long time, PSA HAS GOT TO CHANGE THEIR HOLDER!!

    Even if you hate everything about Beckett you have to admit, their holder (while not as appealing to many) is by far the most tamper proof. Bar None. That overlapping lip prevents the old "prying with a screwdriver" method of popping open the case.

    In PSA's defense, most of the time the case will "frost" on the edges, but I have seen a lot of these auctions, and some cards close up, that showed minimal or spotty frosting of the case which neccesitated closer inspection...then you can usually find the "point of entry" on the case. However, this is only useful if it's in person, if it's an online auction what is the buyer to do?

    The more I see these popping up the more I get worried about it. I don't have nearly the money in PSA cards that a lot of people do, and I've got a lot more money into than others the only thing that gives me some solace is knowing that I sent in 90% of the cards I have holdered.

    I think GAI has a great holder, I know most people don't like the black insert and that's fine but I really like the overlapped edges of that case, it's more like a PSA holder in appearance but it's got that "seemingly" more tamper-resistant (tamper-obvious) edge that I like about beckett holders and it's not quite as bulky as the bgs holders.

    What do all of you think?
    image
    My eBay Store

    BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    PSA should do anything they can to improve their holders.

    But i think the new wave of scams will have less to do with cracked holders and more with photoshoped scans.

    common sense might be a good way to avoid these scams.

    with today's technology you can do some weird things...how much do you think this non existant card would go for on ebay?

    image
    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • FabfrankFabfrank Posts: 2,312
    Obviously this auction is a scam, but the seller basically says so in his item description. He describes the card as " a Novelty" and defines the novelty as "BY NOVELTY I MEAN THE CARD WAS NOT MADE BY TOPPS AND

    NOT GRADED BY PSA"
    He even tells you the card is a reprint and the PSA case has been altered. "It is a reprint card (not marked reprint) in an altered psa case (label

    is not marked reprint either).

    How much clearer can the seller be that this is a fake. The funny part about the auction is that he provides a link to the PSA site to check the cert #. The scan is so small and blurry I can't see the cert #. Can anyone read the cert #?

    Many posters here have said PSA needs to do something about these scammers. What we really need to do is:

    #1 READ THE AUCTION LISTING. In this case the seller can't be more straight foward that this is not a real graded card.

    #2 Continue to faith in PSA and it's product. PSA did not grade this card. Again, READ THE AUCTION LISTING.

    #3 If an auction is too good to be true, it probably is. READ THE AUCTION LISTING

    Finally, let's not blame PSA or SGC for the scams that thieves perpetrate. Be aware, alert others and try to educate the nebies in this hobby.
    Now be careful out there.image
    Baseball is my Pastime, Football is my Passion
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,587 ✭✭✭✭
    How is it that this auction is allowed to run full-term??? I would think PSA would do their best to have it (and the seller) shut down.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • Mac53Mac53 Posts: 805 ✭
    I don't think he's violating ebay rules and I don't think it's a scam. As said in other posts, he's fully disclosing what the item is. My problem is that he's using a PSA holder in this way, which may be a copyright/trademark infringement, and which harms the credibility that I think PSA is trying to build by use of its holders. I would think that PSA would want to stop this sort of thing, since, if their holders are discredited, they're gonna lose a lot of business.
    "Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well."image
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,035 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of course he is violating ebay rules - counterfeiting is a federal offense. Ebay isn't going to allow something on their site that violates federal laws. Ebay just hasn't noticed it yet.
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    The issue is not really this auction per se, it's what this auction represents...So this seller is honest and says it's a fake, great, applaud him, hell, buy his stuff if you want. My concern, and I think others concerns here, is that the guy who buys this relists it in 30 days as a genuine card and takes money from someone. Maybe he doesn't even post a scan, isn't that part of the value with buying a graded card? Sure, a lot of people follow the "buy the card, not the holder" mantra, but the idea is that someone can put "I have a PSA 8 card of this player, sorry I don't have a scanner" and if you want a card in that grade you can be assured that it meets a certain criteria (presumably NM-MT that you're looking for) and would be a welcome additon to your collection. And even if he does post a scan, with as good as people are with photoshop and everything else who's to say that scan is legit? And even if it is, who says it's theirs?

    You can use "common sense" and you can read the auction descriptions all you want, if someone wants to pepetuate a scam, they will find a way, and a buyer, to do so. The point here is that if they have a legitimate scan, can prove it's theirs, a valid cert number and a PSA holder, how are you to know if it's real or not? If we all rely on the sellers to be as honest and forthcoming as this one we're in a lot of trouble.

    Like I said before, I have money tied up in PSA cards, not nearly what others have...if this gets to be a problem, it's a problem for a lot of us. I think PSA should have re-examined their holders quite some time ago.

    Just my opinion...ignore as needed. image
    image
    My eBay Store

    BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
  • alinchitownalinchitown Posts: 75
    What can be done about it is that you can report these types of auctions to eBay. Earlier in the week a 52 Mantle being sold exactly the same way was taken down.
    52 Mantle PSA Holder Novelty

    You can read about it at the supplied link. You can also call PSA and give them the item number and they will have eBay take it down.
  • Mac53Mac53 Posts: 805 ✭


    << <i>counterfeiting is a federal offense >>



    That is correct, if one counterfeits certain things, but all definitions of "counterfeiting" in Title 18 are prefaced with "intent to defraud." It doesn't seem to me that this seller is intending to defraud anyone if he says that the card and the holder are fakes. I don't know whether this is a criminal violation of copyright or trademark protections. Ebay may kick him off, anyway.



    << <i>You can also call PSA and give them the item number and they will have eBay take it down. >>



    I emailed PSA about it several hours ago. I don't know how quickly they read the emails.
    "Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well."image
  • Mac53Mac53 Posts: 805 ✭
    Well, OK, I just got off the phone with PSA (11:20 PST). The person I spoke to on the phone read the listing, and told me that since the seller was stating that it was a reprint in an altered PSA case, he was disclosing everything and he wasn't doing anything wrong. He was glad that I called and would send a message to his supervisor.
    "Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well."image
  • EagleEyeKidEagleEyeKid Posts: 4,496 ✭✭
    Of course he is violating ebay rules - counterfeiting is a federal offense

    Mac, sounds like PSA seems very laxed about the situation even with all the disclosure
    in the item. I just printed out 10,000 $100 bills and I'll go on Ebay and tell them it's fake;
    although it looks and feel real and you too can fool your friends and charge $5 per bill. Do you
    think it'll fly?
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,587 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well, OK, I just got off the phone with PSA (11:20 PST). The person I spoke to on the phone read the listing, and told me that since the seller was stating that it was a reprint in an altered PSA case, he was disclosing everything and he wasn't doing anything wrong. He was glad that I called and would send a message to his supervisor. >>



    If PSA really doesn't care about this type of thing, then the braintrust is even dumber than many of us already thought.

    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,035 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<< Mac, sounds like PSA seems very laxed about the situation even with all the disclosure in the item. I just printed out 10,000 $100 bills and I'll go on Ebay and tell them it's fake; although it looks and feel real and you too can fool your friends and charge $5 per bill. Do you think it'll fly? >>>

    I just called the Treasury Department and asked them about this. They said that if I did it, I would win an all expenses paid ten year vacation in Marion, Illinois.

    Hard to believe that PSA answer. I don't think that PSA representative understands what's going on here.

  • 1979COLLECTOR1979COLLECTOR Posts: 99
    What the HELL!!!!!

    THIS CRAP NEEDS TO BE OFF EBAY!!!!

    I HATE PEOPLE!
  • FabfrankFabfrank Posts: 2,312
    envoy98- I don't believe this seller is honest, and I really don't believe he should be applauded. Sure PSA should be aware of this type of scam and pursue (with Ebay) a system to prevent this. Previous posts make this seem that PSA let this card slip through into one of it's holders. That's why I emphasized that people read the auction listing. The seller is telling you the "card is a reprint", "was not graded by PSA", "is in an altered PSA holder" and when he says check the cert #, you can't! Anyone who thinks this card is legit is a complete idiot. That's why we have to read auction listings and use common sense.
    On some of your other points:

    Sure, a lot of people follow the "buy the card, not the holder" mantra, but the idea is that someone can put "I have a PSA 8 card of this player, sorry I don't have a scanner" and if you want a card in that grade you can be assured that it meets a certain criteria (presumably NM-MT that you're looking for) and would be a welcome additon to your collection

    This is a different issue. If you don't agree with the grade on a legitimate card, don't buy it. If a seller can't show you a clear scan of card, don't buy it. It's common sense.

    You can use "common sense" and you can read the auction descriptions all you want, if someone wants to pepetuate a scam, they will find a way, and a buyer, to do so.

    That's true. If someone wants to perpetuate a scam they will find a way and possibly an uninformed buyer. Again common sense, and a bit of caution should be used in any transaction with a new seller.

    This auction doesn't bother me as much as it bothers others. It shouldn't bother you either. As an informed collector you and I wouldn't even consider this card. Even someone who is uninformed shouldn't consider this card, if they were able to read. That leaves the idiots and illiterates. The illiterates probably don't have computers image, and I don't feel sorry if a fool and his money are parted.
    Baseball is my Pastime, Football is my Passion
  • Mac53Mac53 Posts: 805 ✭
    Believe me, I'm not defending this guy, and want to see these sales go away. I was trying to make a point that ebay may not care about the listing under these circumstances because it's not a technical violation of their rules. I have twice contacted PSA complaining about this auction--early this morning by email and then 40 minutes ago by telephone. The best response I could get was that the customer service guy said he'd let his supervisor know. Maybe I should have called something other than customer service. Perhaps if PSA gets flooded by calls complaining about it, they'll do something.
    "Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well."image
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am also surprised that PSA would let it's brand name to be tied with this guy.

    Makes you wonder who is minding the shop....
    Mike
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    I dont think Rolex is stopping all the fakes on ebay.

    How about the mirage of fake designer handbags, nobody is stopping those and they are clearly deceptive.

    hey how about you guys call Topps and see if they care, afterall this guy is using a non authorized reprint of their card

    Its impossible to stop them.

    the scammer buys a low dollar PSA graded card, he then removes the card, while doing so the edges of the holder get frosted, he then inserts a lousy reprint and sell this thing on ebay.

    He could do this to all grading companies, he could also create flips from his house using photo software.

    It doesnt matter, educate yourself and you should be safe.

    dont buy expensive cards from low feedback bidders with a crappy scan.

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    This is a low level scam that does not target collectors, but rather lousy, GREEDY, idiots who think they can turn around and dump this crap on others.

    I dont think that even one member of these boards would buy that card.

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • pandrewspandrews Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭


    << <i>
    I HATE PEOPLE! >>



    me too..
    ·p_A·
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭
    Is it possible that someone could simply take a cracked holder where the edges are frosted around and just use a power rotary table sander to remove a thin outermost layer of plastic, thus remove the frost, and then simply reseal the holder which would no longer have any frost?

    I don't have a sander to experiment with, but it would be interesting to know if this is what they are doing to make these holders look untampered. Or would the sander leave obvious markings and make it look even more tampered?
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    fabfrank-I really don't think he should be applauded either, I guess my sarcasm was lost in translation. image

    I do have to say however, I think he's better than most sellers who would in fact try and pass this off as a real PSA card at auction. I know nobody on these boards would buy that card, especially with the description that's been provided...

    The point I was trying to make was that whomever ends up buying it just might get another collector looking at it, from here or anywhere else and try to pass it off as legit. Again, this one has frosted edges on the and has quite obviously been tampered with. But what about the next time? Is that case going to frost as badly? Is that seller going to put a reprint in it and try to pass it off as a real PSA graded card?

    That's the concern, I'm sure there are people that have purchased high dollar cards without scans before because the cards was "A PSA 9"... It happens. We don't want to see it become problematic. If people start questioning everything about graded cards and can't take some of the aspects at face value then what real value has the grading provided? If you can't trust that the card inside is authentic, meets a certain grading standard, or is unaltered...what's the point?

    image
    My eBay Store

    BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>Is it possible that someone could simply take a cracked holder where the edges are frosted around and just use a power rotary table sander to remove a thin outermost layer of plastic, thus remove the frost, and then simply reseal the holder which would no longer have any frost?

    I don't have a sander to experiment with, but it would be interesting to know if this is what they are doing to make these holders look untampered. Or would the sander leave obvious markings and make it look even more tampered? >>



    I have a feeling if you "sanded" it you would definitely turn it "white" not back to "clear". But who knows, if someone wanted to figure out a way bad enough, or just get a new holder and insert a flip...then it's irrelevent what happened to the old holder.
    image
    My eBay Store

    BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
  • phreakydancinphreakydancin Posts: 1,691 ✭✭


    << <i>I have a feeling if you "sanded" it you would definitely turn it "white" not back to "clear". But who knows, if someone wanted to figure out a way bad enough, or just get a new holder and insert a flip...then it's irrelevent what happened to the old holder. >>

    I haven't cracked a PSA holder before, but I have done an SGC slab and can tell you the the frosting is internal cracking. No amount of sanding or polishing would get rid of them.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,587 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Is it possible that someone could simply take a cracked holder where the edges are frosted around and just use a power rotary table sander to remove a thin outermost layer of plastic, thus remove the frost, and then simply reseal the holder which would no longer have any frost? >>



    Great, now we have to worry about trimmed holders too. Argh!
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Well, OK, I just got off the phone with PSA (11:20 PST). The person I spoke to on the phone read the listing, and told me that since the seller was stating that it was a reprint in an altered PSA case, he was disclosing everything and he wasn't doing anything wrong. He was glad that I called and would send a message to his supervisor. >>



    If PSA really doesn't care about this type of thing, then the braintrust is even dumber than many of us already thought. >>




    So I guess PSA has faith in people and this guy will just keep it on his shelf as a "novelty" item. Theres no way whoever wins the card would resell it with out adding it is a reprint in a bogus case............
  • halosfanhalosfan Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm somewhat suprised PSA does not agressively shut down all of these types of auctions. Microsoft is a bulldog and goes after eBay sellers. PSA should do the same to protect their brand name.
    Looking for a Glen Rice Inkredible and Alex Rodriguez cards
  • EdnaPurvianceEdnaPurviance Posts: 48
    I'm more interested in the Brittney Spears fotos!
  • BigRedMachineBigRedMachine Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭
    Let the record show I did read the auction item description and realize the seller is being more than up front about the card being a fake. It's what the guy who WINS the auction subsequently does with the card that worries me. Who knows as to how up front he may be in describing his auction, or who might get burned by it.
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    I think PSA got ebay to shut it sdown after all.
    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • BigRedMachineBigRedMachine Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I think PSA got ebay to shut it sdown after all. >>



    If eBay shut the auction down because of some nudging/pressure from PSA, then that's doing something.

    Now if only we could prosecute. For those who aren't honest about fakes, what is the crime/penalty for selling a counterfeit as real? How is the crime magnified when it goes out in the mail? Just curious.

    I don't have the spending power of some you guys. When I save up $800 to buy that 1955 PSA 7 Koufax card, finding out it was a fake would rip my heart out. I guess that's why we pay with paypal and credit cards. The punishment should still be public hanging. image
Sign In or Register to comment.