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Update on The Golden Silver Collection
kaytsok
Posts: 135
Hi everyone: well, for those of you who feel I was an idiot for putting my project together....congratulations! I guess you were right. There seems to be little interest in what I have done. I'm feeling pretty foolish right now. I offered the collection as a permanent donation to the ANA museam, and they told me they have no interest. They would just crack them out and relabel them as "artificially toned". So I am done. After the Pennsylvania Association of Numismatics (PAN) show in Monroeville, PA this weekend (how ironic to be called the PAN show), this collection will go in storage forever. My 4 year old daughter will probably sell it someday when I'm dead and gone and she finds it rotting in a dark corner up in the attic. For those of you who have supported my effort, thanks. I realize there are other ways to publicize this collection, like some of the fine websites discussed in this forum. But I need to refocus my life efforts on other things other than pan-frying silver dollars. Thanks for the opportunity to use this forum as a way to tell my story.
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<< <i>I offered the collection as a permanent donation to the ANA museam, and they told me they have no interest. >>
You could permanently donate it to me
I think it's a neat collection and it's interesting that PCGS slabbed them. But think of all the good you could have done with the $10,000 you spent on it.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I'm not quite sure what you intended to prove by toning modern commemoratives and slabbing them. I assumed you just like golden toned coins and being tricky.
If the point was to prove that PCGS will slab AT coins - well, that already happens.
Since you will now store them away "forever" chances if you left the coins they way they were, they'd wind up golden toned after being stored for so long anyway.
<< <i>But I need to refocus my life efforts on other things other than pan-frying silver dollars >>
No truer words were never spoken.
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since 8/1/6
I'm actually going to do the frying pan trick, but I'd like to showcase your collection on the site, if you are interested.
Let me know,
TPN
<< <i>I'd be interested in doing a write up about them on my AT Coins Website. I have a page devoted to experiments others have conducted to AT coins in order to teach others what to look for.
I'm actually going to do the frying pan trick, but I'd like to showcase your collection on the site, if you are interested.
Let me know,
TPN >>
Michael and Kaytsok,
I think Michael's AT site is a good place to post pics, if TPN is willing to do so...
Kaytsok- I think you raised interesting and useful questions. If you store them well, by the time your daughter is an adult, she will likely be able to keep your Golden silver collection or sell it at a profit if she chooses. Between this board, the PAN show, and Michael's AT site, folks who are paying attention can see what you've done. I'm interested, but don't feel a need to see your coins in person. Thanks for posting.
Michael, I've visited your site numerous times and find it informative and interesting. And it leads to a question- does toning invariably lead to a dark silver sulfide layer, given enough time?
<< <i>I'd be interested in doing a write up about them on my AT Coins Website. I have a page devoted to experiments others have conducted to AT coins in order to teach others what to look for.
I'm actually going to do the frying pan trick, but I'd like to showcase your collection on the site, if you are interested.
Let me know,
TPN >>
Thanks. I am interested. Let me get through the next couple of weeks and I'll get in touch with you, probably through your website.
<< <i>And it leads to a question- does toning invariably lead to a dark silver sulfide layer, given enough time? >>
Yes, with long term exposure, the sulfide layer on the surface of the coin increase to a depth that it now longer allows light to reflect and makes the coin appear dark.
However, once exposure to the toning agent ceases, to a certain extent so does the toning. However, there are cases where a coin may become slightly darker since the chemical process still continues for a little while.
Toned coins that "turn" in the holder are often thought to be AT since that type chemical reaction is not nearly as stable as natural toning.
TPN
Did you ever think maybe everybody ELSE is the idiot? What kind of museum wouldn't take a nice donation such as the one you offer? They could have a charity auction of your unique collection, and use the proceeds for...??
You offered lemonade and they turned it into lemons. Heck with 'em.
<< <i>You tried something new, and people didn't think it was worth it. So what? Remember, for the great accomplishments, first comes ridicule, then acceptance, then praise.
Did you ever think maybe everybody ELSE is the idiot? What kind of museum wouldn't take a nice donation such as the one you offer? They could have a charity auction of your unique collection, and use the proceeds for...??
You offered lemonade and they turned it into lemons. Heck with 'em. >>
Thanks for the encouraging word. They seemed nice enough, but I was surprised at their answer. They would have gladly taken the collection, but it's what they were going to do with it that floored me. Maybe I'm wrong, but after discussions with Coin World, Numismatic News, and the ANA, but there is one of two things going on: either they didn't feel that this collection was interesting enough to warrent publicity, or they did not want to ruffle feathers with PCGS. Or maybe a combination of the two. Either way, these major organizations had no interest in it.
When I came up with the idea of a registry set, I had no expectations. I really gave it no thought as to what I would do if I was successful in building the set, and I'd cross that bridge when I came to it. Now that it's a reality, it seems to be a shoulder shrug. I guess it's no surprise that PCGS grades AT coins.
One thought I had looking forward: just to keep the set interesting, any new commemoratives added to the series in the future (Marshall will be out soon), I would just purchase DCAM 70 PCGS coins (untoned). If nothing else, it will keep the set as 100% complete and special. I could always keep trying to get the new pan-fried dollars graded, but I am doubtful I'll get any more. But who knows, because I just got back a coin I sent in months ago. It is not officially a coin in the set, but probably should be. It's the 1000 kroner Swedish commem that came with the Leif Erikson set. It was pan-fried, graded and slabbed, despite my going public with the story on their own message boards.
I'd appreciate any advice at this point. Put 'em away and forget about them? In the big picture, this probably makes the most sense.
Costs aside, it's a neat set that hopefully you are happy with. The lack of industry interest has also reinforced the concept of collecting for personal interest and satisfaction, not for others approval or for your 15 minutes of fame.
Unless it's a major pain to get future issues slabbed, I think you should just keep the collection going and store them for your own enjoyment. Thanks again for sharing this one of a kind collection.
collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens.
The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
Mr. Kostyak-
If you were to donate your collection you would receive acknowledgement in our monthly journal Numismatist. Each month we recognize those that donate material in our Association News and Notes Section. An example of this acknowledgement can be found on Page 77 of our May 2005 issue.
As I mentioned during our conversation, the mission of the ANA is encourage the study of and educate people in the field of numismatics. If the donation was made, in all honesty, we would "crack" out your coins from their slabs and have them re-slabbed with the artificial toning noted on the label. Are intention for "cracking" them out and re-slabbing them would be to educate our members and non-members on such issues of artificial toning...not point the finger at the Grading Companies out there.
If you are seeking the publicity as you mentioned in your below e-mail for your project, you may considering contacting publications such as Coin World or Numismatic News. Again, I thank you for considering us for your collection. However, we must respectfully decline your offer at this time.
Erik J. Heikkenen
Curator, Director of Permanent Collections
American Numismatic Association, Money Museum
719.632.2646 ext. 141
719.634.4085-facsimile
Discover the World of Money @ www.money.org
PCGS/NGC/ANACS ect., all grade and encapsulate coins that have been altered in one way or another. The question isn't whether they do or they dont, the real question is what steps are they actively taking to prevent additional altered coins from ending up as certified. I, personally dont think enough attention is being paid by the TPGs to AT coins. Thats why I started the website. I want to be able to have a place available to everyone interested so that they can learn about the lesson your collection has taught many here on the Boards.
If its in plastic, it doesnt mean its real. Its important that people understand that. I think a description of your experiment with pics, will be a fascinating read and I would like to post it to ATCoins.com for everyone to read.
Please let me know when you are ready.
TPN
I saw the set at the ANA show, and responded to your threads about it, even pointing you to the
US Coin forum here for better exposure.
What I didn't care for was the delivery of your "secret". When it became apparent that the threads
were turning into a PCGS bashing session, I felt like I had been a pawn in your hype, and therefore
edited my earlier responses to indicate that I was not going to play that game. I almost never
edit my posts, except for clarity and proper English!
Good luck with your set!
Ken
And Michael, I will be in touch soon.
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
Assuming that they are indeed real, and you haven't just colorized them through photoshop, and you're not just trying to "get our goat" by posting about them in the first place...
I think they're awful.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>I really dont care how anyone else feels about your set, I think the ones I have seen so far are really nice coins. Thanks for the story I went back and pulled up all the older threads very interesting. >>
Thanks! They do have eye appeal. I'll work on a pic of all the reverses together.
But, TPN, I'm concerned that when I eventually store them, I do it wrong. What is the best environment for them to keep their toning for the long term? Also, you mentioned earlier something about when the sulfides eventually fall deeper into the coin, it could turn? Does this mean that jostling the coin around and/or rough handling of the holder could dull the coin?
<< <i>I feel I have a custodial capacity for the coins in my collection. I know I won't be here forever, and you can't take it with you. So I feel a certain obligation to protect the coins I collect.
Assuming that they are indeed real, and you haven't just colorized them through photoshop, and you're not just trying to "get our goat" by posting about them in the first place...
I think they're awful. >>
You are not the only one. There were quite a few people who thought they were ugly. But overall, there were more positive comments than negative ones. As for the possibility that my pics are just colorized thru photoshop, all I can say is they are real.
Edited to add: The original sounded a bit greedy. I am not saying break the set up and give it to me. I am merely saying as a YN, I can see how that would help with the issue.
I hesitate to break up the set. I built it as a 100% complete PCGS registry set. It won't be 100% complete in a couple of months as other coins are added like the Marshall coming soon, but it will be mostly complete anyway, or at least the first 49 coins. I think that adds something to the overall collection.
I do have other proof commem silver dollars PCGS with this same toning that are not part of The Golden Silver Collection, but toned the same way. I would certainly consider giving those away in some fashion, but it does need thought through.
Overall, I am getting to the point that I'm ready to put this all on the backburner for now. It's just taking up too much of my time thinking about it. I hope to be in touch with Michael (TPN) soon to be featured on his website. Maybe this should all be revisited in September to gear up for the PAN show in October. (it's only a short drive for me).
Also, I'm interested if anyone can tell me how much this toning might deterioriate in the years ahead in the PCGS slabs. What can be done to minimize this? What might they look like in a few years if put into storage? What's the best way to store them? If these coins are jostled around with rattling in the blue PCGS boxes, could this action alone alter the toning?
If anyone trustworthy is interested in setting up the set at the ANA in California in July exhibits, please let me know. I would LOVE to collaborate with someone willing to take the time to put together an exhibit that was well thought through and constructed. I would involve many hours of work. I'll ship the set and he/she could be responsible for the getting the coins to and from the exhibit and then back to me. But they need to design the exhibit, too, which I now know really needs to be first class.
Any and all comments are appreciated. Thanks.
Like conder101 said, it would be well-suited to a non-competitive exhibit. You could have examples of how that type of coin tones differently when cooked less, and when cooked more. Your narrative would benefit from being broken up into smaller chunks instead of one long paragraph.
Frankly, I think the more light shed on how coins can be AT'd, the better.
It was nice talking to you at PAN.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
The best way to stabilize the coins is to store them in a dry environment at a constant temperature. I would suggest that you place each of the blue PCGS boxes in a Zip-Lock bag (food storage bags do NOT contain PVC) along with a desiccant.
P.S. You should try for multi-colored coins now:
Steve27: beautiful coin. Have you tried getting it slabbed? It really is gorgeous.
RegistryCoin: thanks for your comments. They help me not to feel like this whole project was a mistake.
p8nt: "buy the coin, not the holder". You are right. I think this could be a critical theme for future exhibits. Not just on the toning issue, but the overall subjectivity issue as well.
What was the point of this experiment exactly? (Idon't mean that sarcasticaly either.)
Was it to get at'd coins in holders to show the danger in buying certified toned coins? Was it a novelty idea? OR, was it just to have pretty golden dollars?
<< <i>I must have miss3ed th initial thread about this project.
What was the point of this experiment exactly? (Idon't mean that sarcasticaly either.)
Was it to get at'd coins in holders to show the danger in buying certified toned coins? Was it a novelty idea? OR, was it just to have pretty golden dollars? >>
Eighteen months ago, I read an article from the president of NGC saying you can put a proof coin in the oven for a few minutes and it will tone. I tried it on the top of an electric stove, high heat, no chemicals, heat only in a teflon frying pan. It toned nicely. I sent it to PCGS for grading, not believing it would get slabbed. But it did. After a few more tries with occasional success on PCGS slabbing, I got the idea of trying to build a registry set. After over 100 submissions, $10,000 in grading fees, luck and persistance, I built the set. Sending in two toned coins in a single submission resulted in both coming back in body bags. But one toned coin per submission, they were slabbed 60-70% of the time. I had no idea what I was going to do with it if I was successful. It started harmlessly. I tried to tell to story to Coin World and NN, but they had no interest in the story. Then I told it on this forum. Generally, people appreciated the effort, but there were certainly people who objected to the whole process. Would I do it all over again? Probably not. It probably took 200 hours of effort. I've put this 100% complete PCGS registry set out at two coin shows for exhibit in the past 3 months. I think the novelity is wearing off and the set will be going into storage soon. I hope to be featured on TPN's website (Michael) soon for some final publicity. Generally, the project raised the awareness level of the general public on issues/problems associated with toning and TPG.
Like I had said previously I really like these coins. I would prefer my coins toned a golden hue.
My question is did you get any direct feedback from the TPG companies, commenting on this set? If you choose not to responsd I do understand.
Thanks
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Does this project represent the extent of your interest in coins? I haven't noticed you posting to anyone else's threads. >>
I manage $120 million, mostly mutual funds. My average client has $500,000. I own $50K or so in coins. It's an avocation for me. I have posted on Goldsaint's GOLD AND SILVER ECONOMIC PREDICTIONS.
I believe the stock market will double between by the end of 2008, so this is where my investable assets go. I own the coins just as an insurance policy in case I am wrong.
somehow i managed to miss all the threads about this Set and it's development, but i didn't miss meeting the Set owner at this weekend's P.A.N. Show. thanks, Paul, for spending some time Friday and double thanks for the generous gift. Paul had decided to spread the Set among forum members by handing the coins out to all who showed up at Ptvetters table Friday at high-noon. i ended up with the 1987-S Constitution PCGS PR67DCAM along with a quick synopsis of the "pan frying" experiment. what surprises me about this whole thing, the untold story so-to-speak, is how easy it is for everyone to dismiss collections like the PKOK Hoard and the Appalachian Hoard and the Marty Hoard as being probably AT coins which were granted legitimacy by being holdered at PCGS et al. that point never even came up, at least not in the threads that i read unless i missed it.
if you haven't understood what my perception of tThe Golden Silver Collection intended you to understand, i think it's simple-----AT coins are in Top Tier Holders and we are all being fooled regularly.
<< <i>I missed it the first time around... >>
...As did I.
<< <i>
<< <i>I missed it the first time around... >>
...As did I. >>
Me 3. Now I see what all the fuss was about in the other "goodbye" thread. I have to agree with the consensus now, another coin doctor gone and good riddance.
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
<< <i>My take is that the former forum member ATed the coins in the holder or had them holdered by PCGS and was disappointed that the ANA, Coin World, and Numismatic News did not embrace his work as a seminal numismatic event. I guess they missed the boat.
It appears we all missed that boat!!!
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
I responded negatively to his goodbye post because I thought he was crass - most people with decent incomes that I know don't feel the need to flaunt the information in a public forum. It's just in bad taste, IMHO.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Over the past few years, I have had fun coloring coins with heat, bleach, etc. But the results were terrible, and I am done. Coin doctors who know what they're doing have talent. I have none. Just fyi, I am about 1-2 years away from selling off all of my coins, mostly on EBAY. I'm also done with any coin shows, so I expect that I'll continue to just lurk in the cybershadows.
I have finally put scans of each of my coin on the PCGS Registry Website. I am hopeful they don't shut me off. Over the next few months and years, I hope to add scans of the reverses, and maybe photo's of coins to show some of the luster.
Once again, I am very sorry for offending people.
The Golden Silver Collection PCGS Registry Set
So was this last one your final post ?????