New Connecticut law to help stifle the coin business

roadrunner

My local coin dealer just showed me this new regulation that goes into effect statewide in CT as of October. Eventually more laws will follow and enter the mainstream of business and our own hobbies.
This is just the first of many steps to come to ensure all the rats go down with the ship. The new bankruptcy law is of similar ilk.

The new CT law will require all people who conduct business selling coins (not just dealers) to be licensed and registered with the town
Chief of Police or First Selectman. Besides being licensed to do business the person doing said business must also maintain an "electronic" copy of all transactions including date and time completed. The "intent" of the law was to come down on pawn shops, antique deales, fleamarket sellers, and the scum that setup in hotels and other places to buy coins from the public. This will make the coin business in CT more exciting. The police will be coming into coin shops regularly to download all transactions. And as I see it, this is the first step towards montoring your activities as a hobbyist. The first step is always in the name of justice. The rest of the steps are intrusions in your freedom. At some point you won't be able to buy or sell a gold coin without it being recorded...auditors will follow the trail to your doorstep.

roadrunner

cosmicdebris

And why I am just hearing aboot this now?

roadrunner

My dealer pulled out a copy of the statute. I too cannot believe that this is not common knowledge in the CT coin business. This could make a lot of dealers who deal mostly wholesale to just go 100% wholesale in buying and selling. It's almost not worth the hassle unless you do a significant portion of buying from the public. Something tells me the law is going to totally miss the intended target but shackle those who have always followed the laws.

roadrunner

cosmicdebris

You got a link to the law anywhere? How will this effect hobbyists that sell their old coins on eBay after they have upgraded them?

Longacre

I am from CT. Do you have a cite to the statute? Otherwise I will try to find it on Monday at work.

lathmach

This isn't meant to rankle you Roadrunner............but if you had your coins stolen, wouldn't you rather like to see a law like this strictly being enforced? You might have some chance of recovering them.

Ray

cosmicdebris

Is THIS it?

robertpr

Looks like a BS law that would not stand a chance if challenged in court.

mrearlygold

My wife who grew up in communist Vietnam just said "unbelievable". But with an 8 trillion and growing debt, it's pretty predictable they are going to get it from somewhere.



Tom

roadrunner

Good research Cosmic...that's the one. I see it as "big brother" slowly moving in. The govt doesn't want competition for the US dollar and gold, coins, and silver are competitors....as are many other tangible assets.

Ray, unfortunately this bill will catch few crooks imo. The real problem are the "dealers" (wannabes) who don't even have licenses and set up at various shows, flea markets, and hotels looking to buy. And no, I don't need or want the extra "protection" this bill purports to give. The odds of finding stolen coins are 1 out of 100 typically. Maybe now the odds will be 1 out of 99 for recovery. Like the Patriot Act, for the little additional protection afforded, this bill only allows a foothold to introduce additional laws down the road to monitor our buying habits. And if those habits don't support the bread and butter institutions (cash, banks, stocks, bonds, real estate) you can be sure life will be made harder for those who behave contrarily.

Somehow I don't any of us being too thrilled with having to give our name and address to the police anytime we sell a coin to our local dealer. The police will have that disk in their possession and your business will now be there's. The idea of such a disk being passed around betw law enforcement agencies seems very invasive. Next step will be the IRS asking if you paid capital gains on your sales.

roadrunner

mrearlygold

Somehow I don't any of us being too thrilled with having to give our name and address to the police anytime we sell a coin to our local dealer. The police will have that disk in their possession and your business will now be there's. The idea of such a disk being passed around betw law enforcement agencies seems very invasive. Next step will be the IRS asking if you paid capital gains on your sales.

roadrunner >>








Bingo! Or where you got the money to buy them in the first place.


Tom

ddink

Sounds like CT is on the way to something similar to the Law for the Termination of the Suffering of the German People and Reich.

roadrunner

Don't worry. This bill will help the majority of law abiding Connecticut citizens including coin collectors....albeit at the expense of listing their coin's (or gold and silver bullion) sale price everytime
they sell.

A conversation with the CT dept of revenue in 2006 (or an IRS agent once the CT DOR is done with you and passes along your digital file to the FEDs):

Hey mister, what did you pay for that there gold eagle?
Aren't you supposed to declare capital gains tax? What?... you sold at a loss? Show me your proof of purchase. You don't have one? Well then I can only assume your acquired that coin at $0 and now owe gains on the full sale amount. That will be 5% on the full amount please. Now let's see what the penalty should be for evading tax payments and filing a fraudulent tax return for 2005. Thank you Mr. Six Pack for being so cooperative today.

roadrunner

roadrunner

Sounds like good old Connecticut is on the way to eliminating all coin shows. Move over Mass, NY, NJ, NH, and RI. Make room for the CT buyers and sellers.

roadrunner

hedgehog847

Something tells me the law is going to totally miss the intended target but shackle those who have always followed the laws

Sounds like gun control!

roadrunner

Hedgehog, I haven't seen that icon in a while. But thanks for the memories.

My wife who grew up in communist Vietnam just said "unbelievable". But with an 8 trillion and growing debt, it's pretty predictable they are going to get it from somewhere.

And the new bankruptcy law will ensure they get it regardless of the fact that you were enticed with absurdly low interest rates by the FED. Bottom line is that they hooked you in and now will make you pay until you die. So what if mortgage companies offered you silly deals and appraised your home at 40% over its value? Now it's time for you to pay up as Fannie starts to do a Titanic impersonation.

roadrunner

cosmicdebris

How will this effect hobbyists that sell their old coins on eBay after they have upgraded them?

stimmy

Yes the Peoples Republic of Connecticut seems to have a new law. But it’s all about income to the state.

First you must have a license to do business in the Peoples Republic of Connecticut as stated which of cost $10 “No person may engage in or carry on the business of purchasing gold or gold-plated ware, silver or silver-plated ware, platinum ware, watches, jewelry, precious stones or coins unless such person is licensed by the chief of police or, if there is no chief of police, the first selectman of the municipality in which such person intends to carry on such business; except that the provisions of this subsection shall not apply to the purchase of such items from a wholesaler by a manufacturer or retail seller whose primary place of business is located in this state.”

This means your locale Walmart, Sears, E-Bayer, Etc. is going to need a license to do business in the state and if you want to buy a ring at on of these stores the store needs to “Each such licensed person shall keep a record in which he shall note at the time of each transaction a description of the goods purchased and the price paid for them, the name and address of the person selling the goods and the date and hour any such goods were received. Each such licensed person shall demand positive identification from the person selling the article and the type or form of identification received shall be noted in the record. Any state police officer or municipal police officer shall have access to the record required to be kept under this section and may inspect the place where the business is carried on as well as any goods purchased or received.”

So in the end it’s all about income to the state: come to Connecticut to do business highly taxed, highly regulated.

LanLord

My only question is why didn't Massechusetts try to pass a law like this first?

Isn't Connecticut like Massechusetts, only without the Kennedys?

Nocerino18

Sec. 21-100. License required. Fee. Record of transactions. (a) No person may engage in or carry on the business of purchasing gold or gold-plated ware, silver or silver-plated ware, platinum ware, watches, jewelry, precious stones or coins unless such person is licensed by the chief of police or, if there is no chief of police, the first selectman of the municipality in which such person intends to carry on such business; except that the provisions of this subsection shall not apply to the purchase of such items from a wholesaler by a manufacturer or retail seller whose primary place of business is located in this state. Such person shall pay an annual fee of ten dollars for such license. The license may be revocable for cause, which shall include, but not be limited to, failure to comply with any requirements for licensure specified by the licensing authority at the time of issuance. A chief of police or first selectman shall refuse to issue a license under this subsection to a person who has been convicted of a felony. A chief of police or first selectman may require any applicant for a license to submit to state and national criminal history records checks. If the chief of police or first selectman requires such criminal history records checks, such checks shall be conducted in accordance with section 29-17a. For the purposes of this subsection "wholesaler" means a person in the business of selling tangible personal property to be resold at retail or raw materials to be manufactured into suitable forms for use by consumers.

(b) Each such licensed person shall keep a record in which he shall note at the time of each transaction a description of the goods purchased and the price paid for them, the name and address of the person selling the goods and the date and hour any such goods were received. Each such licensed person shall demand positive identification from the person selling the article and the type or form of identification received shall be noted in the record. Any state police officer or municipal police officer shall have access to the record required to be kept under this section and may inspect the place where the business is carried on as well as any goods purchased or received.

(c) No such licensed person may purchase any goods from a minor unless such minor is accompanied by a parent or guardian. Each such licensed person may only pay for goods received by check, draft or money order and no cash shall be transferred to either party in the course of a transaction subject to the provisions of this section.

(d) At the time of making any purchase each licensed person shall deliver to the person selling goods a receipt containing the information required to be recorded in subsection (b) of this section, the amount paid for any goods sold and the name and address of the purchaser.

(e) Upon request of the licensing authority each such licensed person shall make a weekly sworn statement, describing the goods received and setting forth the name and address of each person from whom goods were purchased, to the chief of police or first selectman of each municipality in which he transacted business that week. Such sworn statement shall not be deemed public records for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act, as defined in section 1-200.

(f) Any person who violates any provision of this section shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars.

Nocerino18

This is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen. I am about to graduate from Law School and I have never seen a law that violated the Constitution in so many ways at the same time. If you notice the punishment of the law is $1000. They are going to have to fine me that $1000 and I will take it all the way to the Supreme Court of the State. I also plan on making every single State Representative completely insane as I am going to bombard them with letters. They have gone too far with this one and I will make sure that this law does not remain in effect. Anyone that lives in Connecticut please feel free to drop me a line and I will send you a letter that you can sign and send to your State Representatives along with how to find the address of where to send it.

- One Pissed Off Republic of Connecticut Slave

rb7557

And I thought CA was bad! When are these overpaid, underworked, POS communist politician's
gonna wake up? It seems each generation of these public "servants" outdoes the previous in their mission to undermine the Constitution of our nation. I wonder if the authors of which ever had nightmares of this internal undermining? It seems that our governing body has forgotten how our nation's birth came about. Looks like the tax on tea is being reinstated under the guise of many new names. By the way, when will toilets come out with meters on the handle? They seem to find ways to tax the crap outta everything else, might as well tax crap as well...

fishcooker

How can they outlaw cash? Won't that tick off the Feds who print it?

librtyhead

I dont think I will be buying any coins from conneticut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nocerino18

They can't and they won't outlaw cash. I can't wait until this law comes into effect. I am going to call up the local police force and tell them that I am violating 21-200 and I want them to come write me a $1000 ticket. I will initiate action the same day.

Nocerino18

Dear "Libertyhead" and any other person who seems to be misunderstanding this new law that will not even stand up.

This law does not apply to you if you are not actually in the state of Connecticut even if you are buying from someone in Connecticut.

This law does not apply if you are buying from a "Licensed" dealer. The law is intended for Pawn Shops and Coin Dealers buying coins from people walking in off of the street (especially with stolen goods).

ddink

<< <i>And the new bankruptcy law will ensure they get it regardless of the fact that you were enticed with absurdly low interest rates by the FED. >>



Funny how everything is someone else's fault these days. Video games made that person snap, or the music they listened to made them do it. or they did it because their friends pressured them. It's the Fed's fault that people borrow more money (oops! I mean "FRNs" since, in spite of the dictionary, we cannot call "FRNs" money) than they can pay back.

SilverDollarMan

Typical Big Brother....BS!

Nocerino18

I am so angry right now. On monday morning I am going to spend the whole day calling every single state representative. I will do my best to make all of their lives miserable. I worked at a state assemblymembers office and he hated when angry constituents called up. They will all be sorry that they ever wrote that law.

mrearlygold

<< <i>And I thought CA was bad! When are these overpaid, underworked, POS communist politician's
gonna wake up? It seems each generation of these public "servants" outdoes the previous in their mission to undermine the Constitution of our nation.





They ARE awake comrade. They do these things because they know they CAN.

Tom

Nocerino18

Tom - They will all be sorry. When this law is repealed I will make sure to post it and TTT every day for a year!

roadrunner

Nocerino18,

While this is intended to snag people who buy from the public how about those who rarely or never buy from the public? In my case I maintain a resale number and wholesale to dealers as well as buy from them. I have to register with my first selectman because of <$500/yr of purchases from the public? I may as well just eliminate that entirely. But then do you think the state will believe that I am doing business only with the trade? Of course not. Would I expect harassment? Surely!

If I buy a coin from a friend or fellow collector I have to be licensed? If I put up a coin on a bid board to sell I will be tracked? The police may as well camp out at every coin shop or coin show entrance and take everyone's name to find all the violators. It will smoeday be crime in CT to own a coin or other tangible asset without the state having full knowledge of your holdings. You own an unlicensed gold coin son? You're under arrest for RICO.

roadrunner

ms70

<< <i>to be licensed and registered with the town Chief of Police or First Selectman. >>



Like the police don't have anything better to do. I'm sure the local PD's will snap to attention to enforce this with vigor!

mrearlygold

This is PRECISELY what is done in COMMUNIST Vietnam. You go to the local district chief of police and register what you are doing. They give your papers a "stamp" which is ROUND ( I important to note because ROUND stamps are ILLEGAL for private companies to manufacture. I had mine sent to me from a friend in the States and the customs in Vietanam was going to seize it until I told them that in my country it was similar and I needed it to blah blah blah, and they blah blah blahed and let me keep ii

Then they come around every now and then to check your papers and receipts to which most Vietnamese don't get involved in credit cardsm, atms or anything electronic ( There is a BIG push going on there now by the banks trying to convince everyone how "convenient" it would be to have a checking/savings account and ATM card, although very few people are buying into that pitch and sticking with cash). So that leaves the police to take the small business owners word for it or in the event the small business owner gets the police angry then the police access a tax based on pereceived LIFESTYLE ( sound familiar at all? ) and seize whatever stock, property, etc that they can.

What's the highest rate of tax you might ask? In Communist China it was recently reduced from 33% to 15% ( in special "economic zones") and 45% ( total including vat type tax) in Vietnam. But there's no electronic reporting, record keeping etc and it's really judged on a case by case basis. But that's also on the net, after expenses.

Sad huh?

Tom

roadrunner

I was discussing this bill with a friend and he said this version (as referenced above in multiple places) has been in effect since 1981 when the governor had her silver stolen. In essence you would have to be licensed in up to 169 different Connecticut towns to buy from the public, or be subject to fines. The law is rarely enforced and even those fly by night hotel buyers often do not get any scrutiny.

What I had seen yeterday, or thought I had seen, was a version that required "electronic filing". Those words do not appear in the current version. Since my dealer indicated this was going into effect in October I must have been looking at a proposed or recently passed bill not yet on the record.

Need to ask some more questions on this. But the requirement to be licensed, record all public buying transactions, and not use cash has been in effect for over 20 years. Archaic huh? Just because the gov'ner lost her silver. The law doesn't say you have to turn in the documentation for every transaction, but only when requested.
And when requested the info doesn't need to include the purchase price. Or at least that's one dealer's interpretation of the statute.

roadrunner

laserart

I don't know how they can tell people cash is not acceptable. Whatever happened to "This note legal for all debts public and private"?

PerryHall

Where's ICTA in all this? I would think they would be fighting like he11 against this.

vinman

I agree and will also do anything in my power to try to get this Law off the books.If anyone would like to talk more about this they can give us a line at coinsuperstore. Together we can try to get rid of this stupid law.

ScarsdaleCoin

for what its worth.....this type of law is becoming more and more popular....its an effort to help in the recovery of stolen merchandise.....we have had this in NY for Jewerly for quite some time....

vinman

ttt