Interesting breakdown of a fake Diocletian Aureus on eBay

CIVITAS

http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/examples/fakediocletian01.htm

ccrdragon

fascinating!!! well written article and solid investigative work!!!

1jester

Not only is it good investigative work, but as the article suggests, the forger(s) and accomplices should be hunted down and brought to justice.

PuddlePirate

The Canadian boys at work once again. After reading ALOT at the Ancient Coins Forum, I was surprised at just how many high priced coins on EBAY are fakes, made by the same group of people in Canada and passed off as the real thing. One artical listed a history of sales, these counterfiters are pulling down around 12k a week in bogus gold and silver ancient Roman and Greek Coins.
It is absolutely mind boggling. I even got a couple "uncleaned" fakes in a purchase from an Ebay uncleaned seller. I don't do business with that one anymore, his "real" coins were of poor quality and low attribution rates.

CIVITAS

Those Toronto boys are real trouble. We unknowingly sold some coins to them. Never saw any fakes of them show up on eBay though. However, we know another dealer who unknowingly sold a coin to them and they made a cast fake of it and then tried to return the cast fake for a refund! That takes some nerve....

CIVITAS

After double checking, the eBay seller is listed as being from L.A. and has 274 feedback with 100% positive. His other listings all appear genuine and are also gold coins. So, maybe he got duped. Plus he pulled the auction of the fake Diocletian, so he's probably on the level(ish).

spoon

So folks know the identity of these counterfeiters???

Every country has equivalents of our US Customs and Treasury departments. Whichever borders these folks' items cross would be someone to report this to. Even if counterfeiting laws don't apply, fraud and mail laws always will.

Why aren't these ßastards being reported and fined (at the least)?

northcoin

Since the countries that coined these originals no longer exist and as such these coins are not legal tender it would appear that the traditional counterfeit laws do not apply. A dealer selling an original probably has more risk as far as the law is concerned because of all the antiquity laws that various countries have adopted to protect removal of their artifacts. Caveat emptor seems to be one's only protection - "Let the buyer beware."

spoon

Unless they are sold as known "copies" by the creator, that person is subject to various fraud related charges--can't quote the specific ones, not my area, but there are mechanisms for dealing with this in every country (where the transaction takes place).

Now the historical artifact aspect does raise some interesting issues: Greece does have very tough laws on this (since they are the toughest lets focus on them). Does anyone know if Greece has ever legally pursued counterfeiters out of country? Perhaps on some statute that the counterfeiter is illicitly profitting from their historical legacy? or maybe even defaming them by associating their historical product with criminal activity? (If the market is flooded with fakes it decreases confidence in the product and Greece could indirectly argue that that hurts them. I guess?)

I really am ignorant on this topic of law, but am p/o'd and want to learn

CIVITAS

Well, unfortunately the problem is that nobody cares except for collectors and dealers. He has been reported by a number of people as far as I know. However, the secret service cares very little about some jerk in Toronto casting a bunch of ancient coins to put on eBay. You can bet if he was making $20.00 bills they'd be all over his butt. Or if he had a rare $20.00 gold piece that was going to be sold for millions, they'd definitely try to get a piece of that action too.

lordmarcovan

Ow.

That sure as heck would've fooled me.

northcoin

<< <i>Unless they are sold as known "copies" by the creator, that person is subject to various fraud related charges--can't quote the specific ones, not my area, but there are mechanisms for dealing with this in every country (where the transaction takes place).

Now the historical artifact aspect does raise some interesting issues: Greece does have very tough laws on this (since they are the toughest lets focus on them). Does anyone know if Greece has ever legally pursued counterfeiters out of country? Perhaps on some statute that the counterfeiter is illicitly profitting from their historical legacy? or maybe even defaming them by associating their historical product with criminal activity? (If the market is flooded with fakes it decreases confidence in the product and Greece could indirectly argue that that hurts them. I guess?)

I really am ignorant on this topic of law, but am p/o'd and want to learn >>




Actually, I just returned from a travel to Crete and Athens last month. The shops pride themselves in selling duplicates of original antiquities. You can bring home full bodied statues and Greecian Urns that are replicas of museum pieces. The sellers have special labels affixed so that when you go through customs you won't be charged with taking out an original - they are that good.