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ARE FOREIGNERS GOING TO EVENTUALLY PRICE AMERICANS OUT OF THEIR OWN UNITED STATES COIN HOBBY? YOUR T

orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have noticed a noticeable ramping up of US coins being bought up by non Americans in the last year or two.

Japanese were known for favoring our $4 Stellas for a few years now, who is next?

I have long remarked that the Chinese are soon going to want to buy up all of our Trade Dollars. Even TradedollarNut will be powerless to stop them.

Americans have long dominated the Canadian coin hobby by buying Canadian coins and out-bidding our neighbors to the north. They are anxious to get their coins back!

Will we collectors get a taste of our own medicine? Will we be getting "rich" on what we already own but increasingly unable to add to our collections?????

What do you think?

A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!

Comments

  • KurtHornKurtHorn Posts: 1,382
    Wow, I hope so! That would mean we'll all make a ton of money and keep the market hot, hot, hot!
    "Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself." - William Faulkner
    NoEbayAuctionsForNow
  • DarkmaneDarkmane Posts: 1,021
    im always torn between having scarce coins affordable and having my relatively few coins double in price right before my eyes. tough call, i dont know what i'd prefer
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    there is one collector in switzerland that has close to 100 stellas



  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Well then, we should talk about this Swiss menace to the hobby!
  • F117ASRF117ASR Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭


    << <i>
    there is one collector in switzerland that has close to 100 stellas
    >>



    WOW! Really? Amazing!
    Beware of the flying monkeys!
    Aerospace Structures Engineer
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    I am not convinced that American collectors have first dibs on American coins. Do Americans really own the "United States coin hobby?" Or course not. Anyone can collect whatever coins they please. Foreign collectors buying US coins strikes image me as a non-issue.
  • It has happened in the Australian stamp market when the A$ fell to new lows against the US$ and other currencies. Many foreigners were able to buy up scare and rare Australian stamps at what were perceived as 'cheap' prices. Australians were not able to match the high prices and many stamps went overseas.

    Now that the A$ has recoved, the flow of stamps out of Australia has reversed and many cases the same ones that bought are selling into the Australian market at very high prices.

    The domestic Australian buyer is at a BIG disadvanatage now as most transactions are subject to the GST (Goods and Services Tax) of 10% which is similar to the sales tax in the US. Foreign buyers are not charged GST on the stamps that are exported and have that price advanatge over domestic buyers.

    Collection of the GST is strange with some people paying and others not. ....

    On imports into the country it seems to be hit and miss. I have heard from some dealers here that they were able to 'sneek' in purchases of as much as A$30,000 without being hit for the 10%. You get billed and don't get delivery until you pay the tax. Other times they were hit for the 10% on as little as A$1000 shipments.

    The worst part is that they nail you for the full value of the item. I bought one block of stamps for about $A800 and got hit with an $80 tax bill.

    BUT if you keep the value below A$500 on the items and they are sent by mail, you don't pay anything......So in effect the tax is much more than that 10%.

    Regarding foreigners and stamps, the same thing happened in Japan when the yen was hitting highs against the dollar. Again many Japanese (and I was fortunate enough to be living there then) were able to buy stamps (and I suppose coins too) at what seemed to be cheap prices.

    I guess that the it worsk both ways as the items were previous purchased at what would be seen as high prices fall unless the market goes up......For new collectors that 'inventory cost' would not be a problem.

    SO as the US$ falls, the prices in the domestic market - unless they go up too - will look 'cheap' to the non-US buyer. IF the coins are popular and the bottom doesn't fall out the worls economy, I would guess that US buyers will be competing against more people with more money and either be priced out of the market or see the coins flow to other countries....

    Good if you have the coins - bad if you don't have them and want them.

    IF the bottom falls out of the worls economy it won't make any difference as nobody will be buying anything like coins!!
  • Stella is an ugly coin so let the foreigners have them. Especially if they want to pay dearly. If you owned a coin like that it would have to be kept in a bank vault and really tough to take it out to look at it.
    There is nothing I own that I wouldn't sell for 3 to 4 times its present value. I am not money hungry but not stupid either. Price me out of coins and I move on to something else. Antiques maybe, to furnish my new vacation home bought with my new found gains.

    Coins are a lot of fun to collect and dream over but dying with the worlds biggest collection or living a bit more comfortably for my family and me would and always will take first place.

    So let them come and bid up the value. Part of the fun of collecting I thought. Who cares if you lose the bidding to Joe from Iowa or Achmedahlla Faha Morandalla from the island of Smee.
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭
    The only thing you have to fear from "FOREIGNERS" is counterfeits.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No.

    As for the Canadian analogy, keep in mind that there are vastly more collectible US coins than there are Canadian coins. It doesn't take much American money to impact the Canadian coin market.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • Dennis88Dennis88 Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭
    I'm not guilty of this.....
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    What evidence is there of more foreigners collecting American coins?
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • razorface1027razorface1027 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭
    Stella is an ugly coin so let the foreigners have them


    I say we hang'em first, then....................image



    Tom
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭
    They can buy whatever I have for 10x what I paid and I'll stick to state quarters afterwards
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why would the Chinese want to buy up the trade dollars? They already make too many and sell US the excess image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • ScarsdaleCoinScarsdaleCoin Posts: 5,179 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is nothing new.....
    Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
  • ChangeInHistoryChangeInHistory Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If push comes to shove we can always hire Marty to cherry-pick all their countries' Dcam proofs.image
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • homerunhallhomerunhall Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭

    In the 1970s, Japanese buyers, actually the largest dealer, bought as many Panama-Pacific $50 slugs and proof Trade dollars as they could find. This "raid" on our coins took place over a period of about 5 years. But then the Japanese coin market collapsed and the guy stopped buying. I don't know what happened to all the coins. They probably eventually made their way back to the US.

    I believe that there's nothing wrong with so-called foreign buyers of US coins. It's a free market and the more participants the better. The stronger the market, the more coins that will come out of the woodwork. And I believe stronger markets make possible better information as dealers and others (such as PCGS) are motivated to provide market participants with more and better information about coins.

    David Hall

  • morganbarbermorganbarber Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭
    Ozzie, thanks for a great post, but if you want to talk stamps, I think there must be another forum.
    I collect circulated U.S. silver
  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So that's what that strange round object is that I see now as an additional tool that pulls out of the Swiss Army knives!
  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I recall correctly, CDN had a report concurrent with the FUN show two or three years ago on the subject of Japanese investors buying up quality US Gold Saints. I have noticed that the High Relief 1907's in MS65 are now have asking prices over $50,000 with a PCGS example listed for $54,500.00 by David Hall Rare Coins in the most recent Coin World. This may well reflect a dwindling supply left here in the US?
  • 1040taxman1040taxman Posts: 153 ✭✭✭
    Interesting thread ,Oreville.I read an article not too long ago that stated that foreigners currently own approximately 25% of all U.S. collectible coins out there.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So that's what that strange round object is that I see now as an additional tool that pulls out of the Swiss Army knives! >>



    Some models have a small magnifying glass. Could this be what you are refering to? image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>there is one collector in switzerland that has close to 100 stellas >>




    Line the magnifying glass over the "Stella reflector" and wow does she get ugly! image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not only foreigners, but those Americans that have portions of their wealth in assets that float with the foreigner's buying power [such as energy and commodities]. These people have experienced a significant increase in relative buying power for assets priced in dollars.

    That's certainly why there are so many 7 figure coins these days.
  • vega1vega1 Posts: 941
    Who cares where the collector's reside? Why is a foreign collector buying coins any different than an American one? We're all participating in the same hobby. Does the fine art or book collecting community deline... dilineat... dyline.... draw a line between collectors from different countries? I don't get why there would be an attitude that "foreigners are pricing *us* out of *our own* hobby"image

    By the way, I think I just said the same thing homerunhall said.image
  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once the coins leave the US their availability in this market is affected. Yes, it is possible that some will return to the US, but less likely. The price of coins in the US is a factor of their availability here since this is where the market is made for US coins. When there are fewer of an in demand limited pop coin showing up in the auction catalogues and on the bourse floors, the price is effected regardless of what the TPG pop figures report. The 1907 High Relief Saint is a case in point. While hardly a rarity, if fewer and fewer are available for purchase then the price increases because the demand does not decrease.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>ARE FOREIGNERS GOING TO EVENTUALLY PRICE AMERICANS OUT OF THEIR OWN UNITED STATES COIN HOBBY? >>


    Personally, I think AMERICANS are pricing AMERICANS out of our own U.S. coin hobby.

    To many collectors are having to compete for the same coins as opposed to 10 years ago.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • MercuryMercury Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Once the coins leave the US their availability in this market is affected. Yes, it is possible that some will return to the US, but less likely. The price of coins in the US is a factor of their availability here since this is where the market is made for US coins. When there are fewer of an in demand limited pop coin showing up in the auction catalogues and on the bourse floors, the price is effected regardless of what the TPG pop figures report. The 1907 High Relief Saint is a case in point. While hardly a rarity, if fewer and fewer are available for purchase then the price increases because the demand does not decrease. >>



    Why does it matter who buys the coin, If I buy the coin and put it in my collection or someone in Japan or China does. When I or whoever decides to sell the coin comes back into the market. Why would it matter where the collection resides.
    Collecting Peace Dollars and Modern Crap.
  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For rarities it probably does not matter since those get pullled out of the market for long periods of time regardless of the buyer's nationality. (i.e. the 1933 $20 that sat in Egypt for years and resurfaced here.) However, for coins in which a market can be made (low pop, but not rare) the impact can be dramatic. Those coins then remain or trade within their newly adopted countries to a much greater degree than if they had remained in the US. Then there is also the factor that the cultures of certain other countries are known for taking a longer view when it comes to investment which only contributes to an overall lessened supply once the coins leave the US. We saw the reverse phenomenon when US gold coins stashed in Europe for years came flooding onto the US market resulting in huge losses for certain dates.
  • homerunhallhomerunhall Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭

    I do not believe that foreigners own 25% of US collectible coins. If the over/under was 10%, I'd bet the under.

    David

  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't believe the over/under is even 5%.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • "Foreigners, as in not American Indian? "Coins", as in all coins from the Fugio cents to now, or the "Foreign" coins prior to the Fugios?
  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    I believe that we must adapt to simple truth that there are more of us now, as in world population growth. For those that want the coin market to expand...well it does seem to be doing so. More demand for commodities, more pressure on existing resources, more energy, more food, and more money, are just some of the demands that have driven this new market. U.S. coins are just innocent by-standers in the now global persuit of the world's valuables. It's becoming more and more of a world-wide interactive, dynamic economy and the internet is one of the major contributing factors.

    It's not that foreigners are driving Americans out of their hobby, it's more like there are more people that have a deep appreciation for some very collectible pieces. Ref: Eliasberg, $10 Million world coin auction with 37 nations represented in the bidders. I believe our coinage is precious and historic and very desirable across the history of issuing U.S. coins. Now there are more people that have more money and the internet, there are just more players now. It's a world-wide economy.

    I would suspect that the U.S, coin market will become more competitive, just like everything else. To be competitive, we will have to be technically more prepared to compete on the world market. We individually have to grade better, have better access to pieces, know the history of our series better, and have better numismatic skills in order to compete successfully this world market.

    The cost of living is rising. It is kind of like $2 gas and our tax burden, it's just going to cost more so you have to make more. Certainly U.S. gold coinage is feeling the rise in price because of the international market . That's part of the justification for the issuance of a 24K gold coin. It's just going to cost more to play, across the board.

    my thoughts...

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am not sure there is a way to determine the amount of quality and collectible US coins that are overseas... but think ABOUT THE WORLD COIN TREASURES that are within the US... image

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting insights. Curious if CDN ever did a follow-up to their article about the Japanese buying up high quality gold coins at FUN.
  • The point is that it happened in two different countries when I was collecting stamps - so there is no doubt in my mind that it could happen with US coins as well.

    With the advent of the Internet and cheaper communication resulting in the ability to access more information in a cheap and timely manner, the market has changed quite a bit from 20 or 30 years ago which allows people in other parts of the world to access markets - not only coins, but stamps, art, banknotes, and antiques, etc.

    The US coin market has many advantages that are not found in other country's coin markets such as up to the date price guides and TPG's - advantages that add to the attractiveness of the market.

    After collecting stamps I know that there are huge price differences between different markets for the same material and I'm pretty sure the same with coins. (I'll post a photo of a recent purchase to illustrate my point next week.) It is a kind of time dealyed arbitrage. I've done it with Japanese stamps and I KNOW it can be done with coins. All you need is the knowledge and bit of $$ and while you will not make big bucks, it helps reduce the cost of the items you collect and as a hobbyist - it sure helps.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This thread is three years old.

    Lets update it.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • garsmithgarsmith Posts: 5,894 ✭✭
    I wouldn't worry about that as much as I would worry about Bill Gates getting interested in rare coins- he could out bid anyone on anything!
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For the last four years I have been more about buying foreign coins. It has helped with currency fluctuations.

    Here is an example of a nice Swiss shooting thaler.


    image
    image
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • Ok.....NO, the more players, the better!
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, they're gonna need a confirmed US address to get mine! image

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    "Well, they're gonna need a confirmed US address to get mine!"

    they've been buying them too
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • WalmannWalmann Posts: 2,806
    I suspect that our real estate is far more attractive at the moment then our coins.

    Granted in the past other countries (especially Japan in certain urban markets and Hawaii) have been burnt on some of their real estate speculation. However, this time aside from the depressed dollar the real estate market is also depressed giving them a winning combination.
    The same goes with some US companies with depressed stocks. Attractive buys out there.

    Weak dollar yes, weak US coin market right now no. Sure some coins will go overseas but probably not at any significant increase over the usual pace. Normally money will flow towards where there is greater investment return.
  • I'm already priced out of my own coin hobby by Americans who make more than I do.image
    "College men from LSU- went in dumb, come out dumb too..."
    -Randy Newmanimage
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are a lot of coins leaving this country.

    This probably applies especially to modern world coins since they list
    at far higher prices in their country of issue. Krause lists many scarce
    coins as biing quite common. US collectors can't compete with others
    who believe the coins are worth far more.

    But, this applies to most US and world coins even where the playing
    field is more level; the dollar just isn't competing well with the euro or
    most other world currencies.
    Tempus fugit.

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