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Mr. Noe in the news again...front page this time

Read the story in the Toledo Blade today...just keeps getting more interesting...
Noe's lawyers refuse state request for rare coin records

Comments

  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570

    Being able to use public funds for your private ventures can sure come in handy sometimes image
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    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    This is going to end badly for some people.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Blade seeking access to information about investments, claiming the documents would reveal “trade secrets'

    The only trade secrets in the Co(i)n Game are the various ways to keep the buyers from figuring out what is being done to them. Not too many of those are still secret. This particular situation with Mr. Noe looks like it's going to get uglier before it gets better.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    No surprise where politicians and their ilk are involved.

    Tomimage
  • I like W but all his friends seem to be going to the big house.While mine are going to Iraq.
    GTS


  • << <i>While mine are going to Iraq. >>

    image
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another related article from Ohio's largest newspaper, The Cleveland Plain Dealer:

    Feds examine fund-raising of key Bush backer in Ohio
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Mr Noe says no,he don't want anyone to know.Three no's don't make an alibi.
    GTS
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only trade secrets in the Co(i)n Game are the various ways to keep the buyers from figuring out what is being done to them.

    Brian - Why is is so difficult for you to believe that legitimate trade secrets are at stake? If you financed a big coin deal for an important business associate, would you want the details plastered on the front page of the Blade? Probably not.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Andy, I honestly don't believe there are a whole lot of secrets to the "game" or in "deals" other than to find ways to hide from the end user what the true value is of the coins they receive. You know, truth in advertising. That's not to say this applies in this instance. You pay "X" and you sell it for "Y." Let's just hope "Y" is somewhere in the ballpark compared to "X."

    If it's truly a trade secret to continue to keep what coins are worth from the pubilc then the hobby still has a ways to go. And with umpteen different price guides, bidding networks, grading services, shifting grading standards, various levels of older holders, etc. it's obviously still a chore to figure out what rare coins are worth. And in many ways not too much different from the pre-1986 days. As the founding members (fathers?) of PCGS look upon the landscape today they are probably shaking their heads as to what they created. "Governments" only get bigger and less defined over time.
    They become more the market than the market itself.

    roadrunner



    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BigMooseBigMoose Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭
    Check out the article listed just below Recent Related Articles--" List of lost State coins jumps to 121". Makes for very interesting reading and the names of a few dealers involved is quite eye-opening.
    TomT-1794

    Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
  • 7summits7summits Posts: 316 ✭✭
    Trade secrets my A--. Someone needs to bring this guy down (and see he gets sent up). image
    image
  • 2ndCharter2ndCharter Posts: 1,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gee, I wonder if the PNG will feature Mr. Noe in their ongoing series of ads in Coin World. image

    Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA



  • << <i>Mr. Noe would not provide details at the time, but he said the review was unrelated to the two coins that Mr. Storeim reported were lost in the mail in October, 2003. >>



    << <i>He's the same coin dealer who told authorities in 2003 that two state coins worth roughly $300,000 were lost in the mail. >>



    I can believe that. I lost two coins totalling $55...err.. $5,500- in a giveaway that got lost in the mail. I don't suppose he INSURED them did he??



    << <i>"There were 119 coins for which the physical location of the coin could not be determined with a total cost of approximately $93,000," the auditor's report stated. >>



    << <i>A sheriff's department spokesman said Friday no theft report was filed for the 119 missing coins. >>



    Bet they forgot to look in his sock drawer.

    He probably has a shipment of Trade Dollars coming in from China as suitable replacements for the 119 that were "lost".




    If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!! image

    My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
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  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brian - I think you missed this:

    Lawyers for Tom Noe and his state-funded rare coin ventures are refusing to comply with demands from the state to produce documents pertaining to public investments in a rare coin deal.

    The records in question are related to a Pennsylvania coin dealer who was loaned up to $300,000 from Mr. Noe’s Capital Coin funds, with a mortgage on a property in Burlington County, New Jersey, used as collateral.

    The loan to the Pennsylvania coin dealer was to purchase a large coin collection, which the dealer wanted to keep in his possession so he could attempt to resell the coins at a profit...


    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414
    From the info in these articles the whole thing has a very bad smell to it.

    Andy....this is a public trusts money, not some private entity. If Mr. Noe had used his own money to finance the $300,000.00 then he might have some ground to stand on. But, it wasn't his money, it was the states. Privacy becomes virtually non-existant when dealing with public funds.



    << <i>Mr. Jackson, the bureau spokesman, said because Mr. Noe withheld $900,000 in bonuses that Mr. Storeim would have received >>


    $900,000.00 in bonuses??? What the he11 is that for???? Was that for 1 year, 2??? 1 DEAL or more???? You could find many respected money managers in this country that would manage 50M for 1/2% a year. That's $250,000 per year. That's the whole fund, not some subcontractors bonus.



    << <i>The market value of the coins was about $300,000 when they went missing. >>




    << <i>The 119 missing coins are in addition to two coins worth $300,000 owned by the state that were lost in the mail in 2003, >>




    << <i>They were being sent to Mr. Storeim by Express Mail from a professional coin grading company in California, which certified their quality. >>


    Was there a claim made for these coins?? If not, Why??? Were they insured? If not , why?
    Would any person with a shred of common sense ship coins valued at $300K not have them insured?
    The whole thing looks very poorly managed. OR, is made to appear that way.

    I will add that these are early reports and my trust in the news media in this country is not the greatest. It could be politically motivated??? It's troubling that they seem to be linking this to campaign contributions. They could be smearing Mr. Noes to get at the President.

    What impact would this have on the hobby if 60 Minutes decided to take this story and run with it. NOT GOOD!!!!!!
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • slothman2000slothman2000 Posts: 952 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I will add that these are early reports and my trust in the news media in this country is not the greatest. >>



    I think that the original story came out on 04/03....this story is going on a month now...too bad that other names are being dragged into this but I believe that you are responsible basically for you own actions.
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This is going to end badly for some people. >>




    yes and unfortunately it will be Ohio Taxpayers like me that get hosed in the end.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It would be interesting to know how coins are accounted for on their books. I have seen where it is claimed that the NGC MS68 1792 half disme is valued at $2M. Personally, I don't think it's worth anywhere near that amount. If it's on the books at that value, then IMO there are unrealized losses which jeopardize the state's funds. However, if it's on the books at a reasonable purchase value and can actually be sold at a profit [so in effect there are unrealized profits], then that would be an indicator that the state's money is pretty safe.

    I actually feel bad for Mr Noe - very few of us could stand up to the level of scrutiny that is being put on him. When the prosecutorial ball starts rolling, it's tough to stop.
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    "Governments" only get bigger and less defined over time.
    They become more the market than the market itself.

    roadrunner >>










    Yes the kind to run away and avoid like the plague.

    Tom
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see that numispro is entangled in this as well. He was suspended from PNG last year. Has he been reinstated?

    This has become "COIN-GATE."
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • This will only get juicier. Apparently Mr. Noe hired a bunch of felons to manage the funds. How on earth could he not know? Every dealer I spoke to seems to know everyone elses backgrounds.

    I never understood what good the fund was. It is wholesale only I have never seen it be beneficial to the market. They seem to buy a lot from the coin doctors. The fund certainly has done nothing to expand the rare coin market place or help you or me.
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414


    << <i>It would be interesting to know how coins are accounted for on their books. I have seen where it is claimed that the NGC MS68 1792 half disme is valued at $2M. Personally, I don't think it's worth anywhere near that amount. If it's on the books at that value, then IMO there are unrealized losses which jeopardize the state's funds. However, if it's on the books at a reasonable purchase value and can actually be sold at a profit [so in effect there are unrealized profits], then that would be an indicator that the state's money is pretty safe. >>


    TDN...I agree!!! But how do you determine the true value??? Liquidate the assets?

    One thing I've noticed about some of the "money makers" in this industry. They do quite well for several years, making lots of money, selling the good stuff. Then all of a sudden they have accumulated massive inventories of coins they have overpaided for and that are no longer profitable or saleable at the levels which were paid and the walls come crashing down. Hopefully that will not be the case with these funds.

    As far as some of the losses mentioned in the news articles. (I'm not talking about lost or stolen coins) Every money manager has losses. Not uncommon at all. The profits just have to make up for these losses. It makes the reading very juicy when the losses have come from a convicted felon. No mention if this same individual has made any money for the fund.

    From the outside the Funds seem to be run very poorly?? I don't know the structure of the fund? Are they buying and holding or churning the inventory?? I find it odd that the coins appear to be in many locations and not a central location or that they don't have a better method of inventory control and tracking. The controls seem to be very loose??



    << <i>I actually feel bad for Mr Noe - very few of us could stand up to the level of scrutiny that is being put on him. When the prosecutorial ball starts rolling, it's tough to stop >>



    After reading more of the articles, it appears that this could be a political witch hunt?? Because of Mr. Noe and his campaign contributions, which don't appear to be that large. What was it $70K over an 11 year period to dozens of politicians. Not that much when you break it down per year, per candidate.
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    my trust in the news media in this country is not the greatest. It could be politically motivated???

    "could be"? image

    Of course it's politically motivated. The press is having their fun, and it's undoubtedly all being orchestrated by the Democrats.

    I also feel bad for Tom Noe, but the whole story reminds me that partnering with politicians can be just as treacherous as partnering with the mob.

    As for a couple of the "issues":

    1. Of course the fund has insurance. If for some unknown reason the loss of the two coins was not reimbursed, it would have been on a technicality, not for a lack of insurance. But the story is better if readers are led to believe that the coins were not insured, so that "minor detail" is omitted from the story.

    2. Yes, Mark Chrans is a felon, but that was twenty years ago and he was a kid at the time. On top of that, the past crime was not the type of thing that would concern most potential employers or business partners. So the only reason to focus on Chrans' criminal record is that it makes for a good story.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes and unfortunately it will be Ohio Taxpayers like me that get hosed in the end.

    That's exactly the type of thinking that the press thrives on. Ohio Taxpayers have done nothing but make money on the Noe deal, yet the headline-reading sheep still assume the worst.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414


    << <i>That's exactly the type of thinking that the press thrives on. Ohio Taxpayers have done nothing but make money on the Noe deal, yet the headline-reading sheep still assume the worst. >>



    Andy...your bias is showing. Unless you have decided to take a pro Noe side just for the sake of argument. You really need to look at the issue a bit more subjectively. I'll take neither , pro or con, for the time being until more is known. Just trying to read between the lines and look at the issue from both sides.image
    Unless you know some insider with all the facts? We do know that the Fund has made $13M since its inception (which all but one article has failed to mention). We don't know however, as TDN pointed out, how they have valued their inventory . Which would change that number significantly.
    This political witch hunt could have some merit, or none??? I don't know?? Only time will tell.
    I hope it works out for the best!!!!!!!! For all people involved....Mr. Noe and the People of Ohio.
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ohio Taxpayers have done nothing but make money on the Noe deal, yet the headline-reading sheep still assume the worst.

    They have indeed made money. But have they made the appropriate amount? Commensurate to the risk? To the opportunity? I think it remains to be seen - it simply can't be determined at this time. Sure, on the face of things it would appear that the return was quite nice - but is the money liquid? Unwinding $50M out of coins is not an easy task - and it becomes especially difficult if you're trying to preserve equity.

    It also remains to be seen exactly how far reaching into the industry this goes. Smoe people are gonna be real surprised.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Andy...your bias is showing.

    Elwood - Not a bias. I know the people involved and I've seen a lot of the coins they've handled. They seem to be doing well. The $13 million in reported profits seems perfectly credible. On the other hand, they have made some blunders, but those have not been hidden. None of the articles, sensational though they try to be, come close to questioning the integrity of the fund's management. Yet they still run the stories like a scandal. Frankly, I find it offensive.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They have indeed made money. But have they made the appropriate amount? Commensurate to the risk? To the opportunity? I think it remains to be seen - it simply can't be determined at this time. Sure, on the face of things it would appear that the return was quite nice - but is the money liquid? Unwinding $50M out of coins is not an easy task - and it becomes especially difficult if you're trying to preserve equity.

    TDN - Fair enough. After all, even a monkey can make money in a bull market.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • I've looked at the stuff in The Funds case at shows and have been quoted dizzy money on coins. If they had to liquidate, they'd be in trouble.

    Have you seen any of their PR Gold? Its been NCS'd to death. I saw a PR $20 that looked like it had no mirrors. What's that stuff really worth? And who's going to buy it? Why do they turn every coin into an NGC NCS'd coin?

    Who's going to pay anywhere near $2 million for the Half Disme? Wouldn't it have been sold by now?

    And last, the issue of Mark Chrans, yes, that was indeed years ago. But isn't it true he has a checkered past with ALL of his backers thats widely known? I hear dealers laughing about his recent foray in a major sale where he apaprently is going to loose big money. How Noe didn't know about this guys abilities is a very good question that deserves an answer.

    This is no more a politcal wtich hunt, then the fact that apparently Noe got the monies from ohio through his contacts. Anyone else ever got more for coins from a state? Heck no! The whole thing rots.
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414


    << <i>This is no more a politcal wtich hunt, then the fact that apparently Noe got the monies from ohio through his contacts. Anyone else ever got more for coins from a state? >>


    If, after reading those articles you don't think it's politically motivated, well??
    Fortunately or unfortunately (whatever your point of view) they have found some ammunition to use against Mr. Noe via his associates.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with a state trying to diversify its portfolio as long as its legitimate and done properly. This coin fund is a very small percentage of the entire Ohio Pension/Compensation System.

    However, without having all the facts, this would appear to be better for the people running the fund than the owners of the Fund. If some of the bonuses and commissions stated in the reports are true.


    << <i>Mr. Jackson, the bureau spokesman, said because Mr. Noe withheld $900,000 in bonuses that Mr. Storeim would have received >>


    $900,000 in bonuses???? What could possibly warrant $900,000 in bonuses??? That should be enough to run the entire fund for almost 4 years!!! Not the compensation of just one of many of the funds subcontractors and employees.



    << <i>I hope it works out for the best!!!!!!!! For all people involved....Mr. Noe and the People of Ohio. >>


    ........and the numismatic community!!!!
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    $900,000 in bonuses???? What could possibly warrant $900,000 in bonuses???

    Trading profits substantially in excess of 900K. Gotta love this business!
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭
    TTT
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    eck out the article listed just below Recent Related Articles--" List of lost State coins jumps to 121". Makes for very interesting reading and the names of a few dealers involved is quite eye-opening.




    where i csnt find it please post link
  • BigMooseBigMoose Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭
    Michael, this thread is more than a year old. The link is no longer present.
    TomT-1794

    Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org

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