"I'm Selling this Item as a Reprint" Topic Only for those tired of ebay reprint scammers
Stone193
Posts: 24,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ebay has specific rules about selling an item and the responsibility of the seller with respect to its
authenticity.
<< <i>Sellers may not disclaim knowledge of, or responsibility for, the authenticity or legality of the items offered in their listings.
Sellers should take steps to satisfy themselves that their items are authentic before listing them on eBay. If you cannot verify the authenticity of an item, do not list it. >>
So based on the rules - is the disclaimer by these scammers: "I have not had this card graded, so I am selling it as a reprint" - satisfactorily circumvent the letter of this rule so that the item should not be pulled.
I'm not a lawyer but I will tell you it does not satisfy the "spirit" of the rule - which is - don't list an item or allude to the item being authentic by saying "I am selling as a reprint" knowing that one wants the buyer to think it is real!
I have contacted Ebay on this and told them I would like a response or call from them and left my office phone number. They need to plug up what appears to be a major loophole in the authenticity rule.
What do you guys think?
Sorry for the length - could not condense it any more and make the point
mike
authenticity.
<< <i>Sellers may not disclaim knowledge of, or responsibility for, the authenticity or legality of the items offered in their listings.
Sellers should take steps to satisfy themselves that their items are authentic before listing them on eBay. If you cannot verify the authenticity of an item, do not list it. >>
So based on the rules - is the disclaimer by these scammers: "I have not had this card graded, so I am selling it as a reprint" - satisfactorily circumvent the letter of this rule so that the item should not be pulled.
I'm not a lawyer but I will tell you it does not satisfy the "spirit" of the rule - which is - don't list an item or allude to the item being authentic by saying "I am selling as a reprint" knowing that one wants the buyer to think it is real!
I have contacted Ebay on this and told them I would like a response or call from them and left my office phone number. They need to plug up what appears to be a major loophole in the authenticity rule.
What do you guys think?
Sorry for the length - could not condense it any more and make the point
mike
Mike
0
Comments
<< <i>Hate to say it Mike, but Ebay just doesnt care. Too many listing and final value fees that they dont want to lose... >>
We have had the talk before and I agree Ebay could give a rats ass - bottom line: $. I was just curious how many people had read this rule and whether ebay is just turning a "blind eye" to their own rule in order to make money?
mike
baseballfanatic, I would tend to agree with you. However, a few weeks back, there was a post on one of these boards from BJ at PSA looking for volunteers to describe their experience buying and selling PSA graded cards on ebay. Anyway, to make a long story short, I volunteered, and BJ called me. Apparently there is a gentleman in charge of the sports cards "section" of ebay (I want to say his name is Scott, but I can't remember for sure). Anyway, BJ claimed this person is very knowledgeable about sports cards and also a very decent person. It kind of changed my opinion a little bit about whether or not ebay cares. Maybe they do. But I agree, it's hard to understand why they don't shut down the fake Mantle auctions and the dutch auctions where the sellers have hundreds of negatives.
A while back someone (I think it was that Sparty Mantle expert) suggested that ebay end private auctions and 1-day auctions as well as private feedback. I think those are awesome suggestions that would help other ebayers police the scammers.
I also wonder to what extent the "law" needs to take over instead of putting all of the responsibility on ebay.
Just my thoughts . . .
<< <i>I also wonder to what extent the "law" needs to take over instead of putting all of the responsibility on ebay >>
detroit
I was thinking the same thing - the FBI could be given enforcement responsibility but then I thought about it - that would possibly help but the role that ebay could take to eliminate some of the practices is probably far more effective and would give law enforcement way less to do. Prevention is far more effective than any enforcement IMO.
mike
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
<< <i>Sellers should take steps to satisfy themselves that their items are authentic before listing them on eBay. If you cannot verify the authenticity of an item, do not list it. >>
I posted this for the purpose of discussion - of course someone can semantically punch a hole in it and "play games" with buyers.
The spirit behind the rhetoric is to attempt to tell a thief to find another place to scam. And, for the record, I don't think it's a loop hole but rather a violation of the spirit and letter of the rule to say: I have not had this graded therefore.... It clearly violates the authenticity disclaimer rule and if someone reports the ebayer, the item and/or seller should be removed IMO.
mike
<< <i>The listing fees and final value fees don't nearly make up for the headache that these scammers are for Ebay. However, Ebay can not allow itself into the business of policing auctions. At that point somebody would eventually hold Ebay responsible for something they bought through the "marketplace." >>
Sagard
If ebay doesn't enforce their own rules, they become moot and they could be held liable from a class action suit - buyers have a reasonble expectation of protection under the rules set by ebay IMO.
mike
What about reproductions of famous artwork? Obviously the priceless works of art that copies are sold of should then be banned, right?
I am just not sure what the problem is in someone stating in their auctions "I can't verify this card is real, so I am selling it as a reprint"? I would think those scammers who use the 'I found this in a book/garage sale/whatever' and pass the card off as real should be the ones to blame here. If someone out and out says "hey, I'm selling this as a reprint", doesn't SOME of the responsiblity fall on the buyer?
What we don't need are more rules and we definitely don't need government intervention more so than we already do. If it's listed and spelled out specifically it's being sold as a reprint, the burden the lies directly on the buyer to read what he's buying. It would be like a car salesman spelling out in the contract everything, the buyer not reading it, signing it (which you are doing when you bid) then trying to reneg or claim 'foul!' when something is wrong.
At some point buyers need to grow up and take responsibility. I've said it before, but these scams wouldn't work if there weren't people out there trying to scam and get a deal in buying something for cheap. You know the old saying 'there's no such thing as a free lunch'.
I think these people who get 'duped' into buying a counterfeit Mantle are too busy drooling over themselves because they think they are getting a real expensive card for cheap. Then when they get burned, they whine and complain, when in fact, they should have used a tiny amount of common sense and not bought it.
'Let the buyer beware'. It applies to ebay, too.
RIGHT ON BROTHER!!
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<< <i>So selling reprints would be illegal in your world? >>
Well, that was certainly an expansive leap - hope you didn't hurt yourself!
Look through any auction for artwork, posters, etc. and you'll see the sellers of reproductions clearly state that what they are offering is a reproduction. They do not say: "Don't know for sure so I'll sell it as a reprint" or "This looks like the real deal to me but since I'm not a professional..." bla bla bla.
The intent is clear with these scammers. I don't know how illegal it is, but it is immoral, unethical and fraudulent.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i>So selling reprints would be illegal in your world? >>
Axtell
What are you talking about - the proper selling of reprints is not at issue here. Not even the illegal selling of reprints as such.
I'm talking about the authentication rule and by-passing it with the rhetoric about selling something as a reprint knowing full well that they are trying to fool someone into thinking it's real.
The thing about responsibility of the buyer and stuff is just argumentative. Consumers need assistance.
No one said anything about government intervention or anything like that.
I was just bringing up the authentication rule by ebay and whether they have responsiblility to enforce it.
If you want to just argue rather than discuss, that's what the open forum is for.
mike
GG
<< <i>Again, buyer beware as axtell already said. >>
GG
I know what you are saying but Axtell was just being a smart ass. This discussion is NOT about buyer beware - it was about the authenticity rule - and ways one can get around it - as you have aptly put it.
People here have learned thru input from each other to be careful. Many people are not and the strength and viability of the hobby is predicated on it's ability to remain as legitimate as possible. That's why the FBI got involved with bad autos.
This is and ought to be about a very tired approach by scammers to cheat people. Points about buyer beware, that someone is trying to get something for nothing etc. is just plain argumentative and irrelevant to the original question.
mike
I asked a simple and honest question. If someone states CLEARLY that they don't know whether or not the card is legit, then what harm can there possibly be? I don't care if the person knows they are fake, where does the buyer bear the responsibility of knowing what he is buying?
If you dealt with the buying public, you'd too be as sensitive to this kind of behavior of consumers. You get people who buy something, leaping in without understanding what they are getting into, then it's somehow not their fault when it's not what they want? Even though it was spelled out clearly beforehand?
If the seller clearly states (and how much more clearly do you want it stated than him saying 'I can't prove these are real'), then doesn't the buyer bear the responsibility of knowing that danger when they buy?
You seem to want it so ebay babysits every single sports card auction. How is this any different than buying cards at a card show where the dealer says 'hey I don't know if it's real. It was given to me by a customer to sell'?
Yes counterfeits suck. Yes shady dealers suck. Yes there are some very unscrupulous sellers out there. But you know what? There are just as many shady buyers looking to turn a quick buck on someone else's ignorance (i.e. buying cards way under market because the seller doesn't know what they are worth).
Ax
You sound very bitter and not the same person who came on these boards asking for input way back when?
Throwing in remarks about reprints was argumentative and irrelevant to the discussion as such. Your feeling towards bad consumers is also irrelevant.
I wasn't even asking for more rules - which seems to be a hot button for you - I was asking if the "authenticity rule" is being enforced and where the scammers fit into that scheme with respect to quasi disclaimers that clearly are against ebay rules.
When you asked for advice about potentially being taken advantage of by a seller - I don't think you would feel good if everyone just said tuff luck buddy - buyer beware. If you were taken in a deal, I'm pretty sure you would want ebay/paypal or someone on your side.
If you want to have a fair discussion - I'm with you. But, you are taking some liberties with my topic and I don't particularly appreciate it.
mike
<< <i>There are just as many shady buyers looking to turn a quick buck on someone else's ignorance (i.e. buying cards way under market because the seller doesn't know what they are worth). >>
Ax! That is totally, totally irrelevant and totally, totally argumentative.
<< <i>I asked a simple and honest question. If someone states CLEARLY that they don't know whether or not the card is legit, then what harm can there possibly be? I don't care if the person knows they are fake, where does the buyer bear the responsibility of knowing what he is buying? >>
That is not the way the scammers approach it - they say something to the effect - that "I have not had the card graded and thus am selling it as a 'reprint' - altho 'reprint' is not on the card" type stuff - you KNOW what the intent of this rhetoric is - that's what the spirit of the authenticity rule was for.
My point being that character counts (as they say on the radio). Come on - if you have a sense that what you're selling might not be a legitimate item, you owe it to yourself to be as upfront with that information as possible; not with a wink and innuendo. I've sold to the public and my livelihood is based on selling - all I have to offer is my integrity. Otherwise, Joe Blow can go down the street and get screwed by every other vendor. This attitude of "well I didn't anything wrong" is really pissing me off. You ask me, it's what's wrong with the world today. 'course, nobody asked.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
At no point was I trying to be argumentative. I was simply trying to tie some responsibility to the buyer.
(As far as the card I bought that I asked for help on, that has no similarity to this discussion. And you try to call me on going off topic? Please.)
<< <i>I was going to continue this dialogue, but I feel my comments will just continue to be misrepresented.
At no point was I trying to be argumentative. I was simply trying to tie some responsibility to the buyer.
(As far as the card I bought that I asked for help on, that has no similarity to this discussion. And you try to call me on going off topic? Please.) >>
Ax
Throwing in points about bad consumers is not relevant to rules that are designed to protect everyone and thus anything put into a discussion that is not germane is considered argumentative in a debate.
This is nothing to do with the responsibility of the buyer - buyers need help and protection and not simply a
well phrase sentiment like "buyer beware" - I think you are correct about that concept but not in this discussion, as such.
You once wanted some advice having to do with - possibly being taken - these things happen - if misrepresentation were involved - wouldn't you want assistance and not just a retort - hey - you bought the farm - buyer beware? That's my point. We need for ebay to enforce their own rules or honest people get hurt. You responsibility with respect to you being screwed by a seller shouldn't be taken into consideration when trying to get help.
When we make laws - the intent is to protect the un"aware" - the innocent. If people were honest, there wouldn't be need for such a statement as buyer beware. The intent of the people selling cards with reprints disclaimers is to steal - the fact that the buyer is unaware or greedy is irrelevant to making laws to protect everyone.
edit: Ax - I apologize for the remark about being a "smart ass" - if I think that you have thrown a monkey wrench into my logic - that doesn't necessarily mean you were trying to bust my balls.
mike
<< <i>If you dealt with the buying public, you'd too be as sensitive to this kind of behavior of consumers. You get people who buy something, leaping in without understanding what they are getting into, then it's somehow not their fault when it's not what they want? Even though it was spelled out clearly beforehand?
If the seller clearly states (and how much more clearly do you want it stated than him saying 'I can't prove these are real'), then doesn't the buyer bear the responsibility of knowing that danger when they buy?
You seem to want it so ebay babysits every single sports card auction. How is this any different than buying cards at a card show where the dealer says 'hey I don't know if it's real. It was given to me by a customer to sell'? >>
Ax, you raised a counterpoint here, which I'd like to address. and it speaks to the concerns I've had with ebay since I first got involved. If you are standing at a dealer's table, and he hands over a card, stating "hey, I don't know if it's real", you as the buyer now have the opportunity to examine the item and make your own judgement call - touch it, bite it, smell it, whatever. If you then make a decision to buy that card and submit it to a grading service, you should be laughed out of town for trying to get your money back if the grading service won't authenticate it. And I agree, there are plenty of buyers out there that would attempt to do just that. They're idiots and a seller would be an idiot to give the guy his money back, unless such a thing were negotiated up front. The seller made his position clear: I don't know if it's real; here, you decide.
On ebay, all you have to go on is a scan and the seller's words. Unlike other auctions, there is no preview available. I happen to think that there should be a mandatory return policy on any item that doesn't match the description. Unfortunately, you are right - there are too many buyers who would take advantage.
<< <i>There are just as many shady buyers looking to turn a quick buck on someone else's ignorance (i.e. buying cards way under market because the seller doesn't know what they are worth). >>
Not sure what you mean here; if a seller doesn't know what his product is worth, someone should protect him from a savvy buyer who is capitalizing on the seller's ignorance? That's a bit radical isn't it?
Peace.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i><< There are just as many shady buyers looking to turn a quick buck on someone else's ignorance (i.e. buying cards way under market because the seller doesn't know what they are worth). >>
Not sure what you mean here; if a seller doesn't know what his product is worth, someone should protect him from a savvy buyer who is capitalizing on the seller's ignorance? That's a bit radical isn't it? >>
Mark
I truly believe that this was thrown in there - perhaps unknowingly - to somehow blunt my argument that ebay should enforce the authenticity clause. If we were in a court of law - he would make the statement, I would object - saying it was irrelevant - and the judge would sustain my objection. It has absolutely no more bearing on this topic than talking about the "responsibility of the buyer" with respect to protecting the him under the authenticity clause.
It's sorta like saying: should a cop stop a man from killing another who may have also been a killer.
The mindset of the person being "protected" is irrelevant at that moment.
mike
What cards are typically the ones we see most often being sold that are 'scams'? I'd say the 52 mantle is by far the tops of that list (heh no pun intended).
Now what type of person is going to think they can get a multi-thousand dollar card like this for a few hundred bucks? Especially when it says 'this card isn't graded and so I must sell it as a reprint'?
That's all...I am not trying to say the buyer must front all the responsibility, just some. If the scans are poorly done, email the seller and ask for more. If you don't feel comfortable, don't bid.
Second of all, you're one to talk -- you and your Pogo Grading Service.
Just trying to lighten it up a little.
I think scammers do hide behind words and outright lie when they claim not to know whether their card is genuine. There are hundreds of such auctions on eBay every week -- "I don't know if this is real, but it looks real to me" -- and they often give fake stories about where they found the card. They found it in Uncle Goober's trunk that's been in the cellar for 40 years and they're "selling it as a reprint due to the rules of eBay"? There is no such rule that an ungraded card must be sold as a reprint. Scammers made that up to cover their own asses, in the unlikely event they are still around and using the same ID when the scam is discovered. In fact, the wording of such disclaimers is in itself often a violation.
These auctions are seldom canceled even when the disclaimer clearly violates the rules. For the most part, in my opinion, eBay does little policing at all except when specific complaints are lodged.
Like someone said earlier, you have to be pretty stupid to think you're going to buy the most popular card on the planet for a few hundred dollars.
All that being said, to the original point of the post, I agree that these "I'm not sure if it's real but it looks real to me" statements are clear violations of ebay rules. I'm just bitter because ebay won't let me list a "choose any 10 Heritage SPs from the following" auction, but I could list a fake Mantle without saying so or I could list a "I'm going to send you 10 cards none of which are in the following pictures" dutch auction.
<< <i>Now what type of person is going to think they can get a multi-thousand dollar card like this for a few hundred bucks? Especially when it says 'this card isn't graded and so I must sell it as a reprint'? >>
Ax
OT from my original topic - and I am in TOTAL agreement with you. In the world of larceny - he who scams...if a person is honest and only trying to get what they pay for...those type of people CAN'T be scammed...my dad used to say: "you have to have a little larceny in you in order to fall for a scam."
I believe that is one of your points and I agree. But we don't neglect the writing of laws or their strict enforcement due to the fact that some people are getting what they deserve - and that was my point on the debate about the authenticity ruling - I was discussing the ruling and not the people involved.
Finally, for all those out there - Ax and I are friends and this debate was never intended to appear personal in any way.
This discussion is good for us - it gets us to think outside the box - to think of not only our Hobby but how this impacts on our lives and the lives of people around us and whether it is positively growing. A little ethics debate never hurt anyone.
Thanx for the great input guys
And everyone have a good weekend
Mike
First, I would like to address your question whether or not a seller
can
use a disclaimer within their listing. No, eBay does not allow sellers
to state within their listings "I'm selling it as a reprint."
Altho some may see this statement as benign, the fact it that it is the centerpiece of the scammers MO to cheat people. And I do agree, that if it's too good to be true is aint - and for most who get stung - one can consider it a rite of passage and all that - but it drives me crazy to put money in the hands of these weasles!!!
They recommend that it be reported - there's a ton of them out there! The truth is that they could keep one employee busy all day long just searching for Mantles, Wagners and Jordans!!!
mike
While they're at it, write a script to set off an alarm for all variations of "I got this 1952 Mantle from a garage sale / estate auction / grandpa's cigar box / Aunt Trudy's recipe drawer, etc."
ManyMantles
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Stingray
<< <i>I wonder how this guy has so many 52 Bowmans that are real?? E-bay needs to have someone checking these out on a continual basis, we here on the forum seem to find them pretty easy. >>
You seem to be under the impression that Ebay actually cares. They pretend to care by killing off auctions that are brought to their attention, but it's only pretending. They'd rather have the fees from a pile of auctions that end up at $300+.
Tabe
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how this guy has so many 52 Bowmans that are real?? E-bay needs to have someone checking these out on a continual basis, we here on the forum seem to find them pretty easy. >>
You seem to be under the impression that Ebay actually cares. They pretend to care by killing off auctions that are brought to their attention, but it's only pretending. They'd rather have the fees from a pile of auctions that end up at $300+.
Tabe >>
That is most likely the reality. In fact, in the same vain, 5 yrs. ago, there was a 100 million $ class action suit against ebay for not protecting buyers from bad autos. It was thrown out saying that ebay is no more than a bulletin board for sales and they were not responsible. At least ebay is doing something, I guess.
However, once they establish "specific" rules, like the authenticity clause, they are responsible for its enforcement and should be held accountable for that IMO.
mike
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how this guy has so many 52 Bowmans that are real?? E-bay needs to have someone checking these out on a continual basis, we here on the forum seem to find them pretty easy. >>
You seem to be under the impression that Ebay actually cares. They pretend to care by killing off auctions that are brought to their attention, but it's only pretending. They'd rather have the fees from a pile of auctions that end up at $300+.
Tabe >>
That is most likely the reality. In fact, in the same vain, 5 yrs. ago, there was a 100 million $ class action suit against ebay for not protecting buyers from bad autos. It was thrown out saying that ebay is no more than a bulletin board for sales and they were not responsible. At least ebay is doing something, I guess.
However, once they establish "specific" rules, like the authenticity clause, they are responsible for its enforcement and should be held accountable for that IMO.
mike >>