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Should PCGS slab the counterfeit micro o morgan dollars?
PerryHall
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Assuming of course with an appropriate notation on the label such as "Contemporary private issue". These have been collected for many years and are well established in the numismatic community as evidenced by the fact that they have their own VAM numbers. Also, unlike the numerous bust half counterfeits, these coins have full silver content and are of high quality as evidenced by the fact that PCGS has already slabbed 96 of them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>Should PCGS slab the counterfeit micro o morgan dollars? >>
No, I think that would set a terrible precedent.
<< <i>Counterfeits are illegal to own >>
To my knowledge that has not been established. I have read otherwise, including articles on the subject such as the one below:
"The issue of ownership of counterfeit collectable coins, however, is a controversial one, more so with U.S. coins, which are still legal tender regardless of their age, than ancient coins. The American Numismatic Association recommends that you turn in counterfeit coins to it or the U.S. Secret Service. The agent at Secret Service headquarters who heads up its anti-counterfeiting activities also advises the same thing.
The legalities regarding mere possession of these bogus coins aren't clear, however. Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S. Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973 (Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of ancient coins.
Nothing in the above statutes says that simple possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal, and no court in the U.S. has ever ruled on the legality of this. According to Armen R. Vartian, the most visible numismatic legal expert in the U.S., "The statutes do not criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money."
Although no court case has ever specifically addressed the issue of the legality of simple possession of counterfeits of collectible coins, some cases have touched upon this area in a tangential way. But for there to be "judicial clarity," a court ruling has to address this issue specifically, according to Vartian, a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles. This hasn't stopped at least one nonlawyer from amateurishly combining unrelated statutes and court cases and repeatedly pronouncing online that possessing counterfeit coins is illegal. Others have also weighed in with their opinion, but ultimately it's all just opinion.
What is clear is that it's illegal to possess counterfeit coins if your intention is to defraud others with them (sell them as genuine) or to refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's entitled to under the law. The Secret Service, in fact, has confiscated high-visibility collections of counterfeits of U.S. coins, though this hasn't happened in some 30 years. This gray area is the reason that Vartian and others recommend that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so quietly.
Hundreds if not thousands of collectors, dealers, and auction houses do just that, keeping counterfeits of collectible coins on hand. What's more, counterfeit coins are bought and sold openly as counterfeits (described for what they are) every day on eBay as well as at major national coin shows and by the most respected U.S. and European numismatic auction firms.
These activities happen despite a loopy warning offered online that possessing or transporting a counterfeit of a collectible coin can get you fined or jailed or your car confiscated. None of these things has happened in the U.S. since the Secret Service, an agency of the U.S. Treasury, began policing against counterfeits in 1865 and undoubtedly from before this time as well, and there's no indication that the Secret Service plans to reverse this 140-year-old policy. The ownership of counterfeits of collectible coins is a non-issue today in the eyes of the authorities, who understandably devote their resources primarily toward going after those who make or pass fake bills, which can threaten the country's money supply.
Coin collectors who elect to keep counterfeits of collectible coins should clearly identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins, says Robert W. Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association, current curator at the American Numismatic Society."
The above is from:
Link to a dicsussion on ownership of counterfeits
That is not as silly a question as you might think. Omega gold counterfeits are collectable and command a premium (so I hear) over other counterfeits of the same series. Why? Because of their history and quality. Same as Bay Area counterfiets of early coppers. Again, so I hear.
Would a TPG certify a $3 gold Omega counterfeit as a "genuine $3 Omega counterfeit" to distinguish it from the counterfeit $3 Omegas counterfeits that would hit the market a short period after the "original counterfeits" were certified as "genuine". If any of the major TPGs begin to "certify" counterfeits a collector's market will likely arise . . . spawning counterfeits of counterfeits.
Mark, you bring up an interesting (and reasonably persuasive) argument. The Secret Service definitely has a different view of owning counterfeits, however. It is black and white. Counterfeits are illegal to possess (at least that was their position as of a year ago). Whether that would hold up in court is another issue given the points you raise. Interesting things to contemplate.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No.
David
What a can of worms THAT could be.
COPIES OF ANYTHING WILL EVENTUALLY DESTROY ANY MARKET IN GENUINE ITEMS.