New bust half (well... 199 years old, but new to me) Grade and Variety?

Baley

This just in, what do you think?

TommyType

Variety: O-125a ??? R-5

Grade: I'm guessing much of the reverse weakness is due to the die cracks, so I'll grade by the obverse. I'm going with a wag of VF-30.

I really like!!

snapmohr

They sure minted nice designs in the early days. Sweet coinage.

Baley

Wow, nicely done TommyType, and way faster than I expected, especially at this late hour.

Yes, this is the 125a, and you're right about the reverse weakness of this very late die state. The coin has the obverse detail of a choice VF coin, and with significant luster on both sides, makes some claims to EF40, IMO. Most likely, the coin never did have full detail in the center of the reverse.

Interestingly, this is the same obverse as on the O.109, but without the die cracks at the date and the one that develops at star 12, indicating that this marriage (with reverse T) was used before the 109 pairing with reverse G!

Overton says R5, however, the recent AMBPR indicates that the coin with this terminal reverse die state is probably an R6, with 13-30 known.

ibzman350

Nice coin and great lesson, thanx Baley.




Herb

Dennis88

LeeG

Very Nice!!!

dorkkarl

agree w/ o-125a. however i couldn't agree w/ xf.

K S

NumisOxide

Great looking draped bust half.

Varlis

Awesome coin. I'd say VF-30. I like the die cracks! I'd never complain about an R5 or R6.

K6AZ

I'm not up on the varieities on these, but it sure is a nice looking draped bust half. I'd agree with a mid VF grade.

rhedden

Real nice coin with just the kind of color you'd want.

Baley

Thanks guys, I'm really happy with this coin, although I can't quite say it was a cherrypick, since there was spirited bidding for it, several bidders realized what it was; the seller didn't state the variety but did note the extensive die cracks on the reverse. Here are a couple of closeups:





dorkkarl, I agree that it isn't a full EF and the concensus seems to be about VF30, which I do agree with. The point is that if a novice were to grade it by type and not take the variety into account, they might note the lack of central wing and shield detail, and say something like "VF obverse, VG reverse, net Fine" or some such. There are also a couple of minor to moderate rim nicks on the obverse, and some circulation marks, but probably not too inconsistent with VF. the color on this coin is above average for a DB half, the surfaces appear to me to be original and unmolested.

Thanks again everyone for your comments, and if anyone has an O.125 or 125a, or an O.109, I'd be interested in comparing and contrasting ..

stman

<< <i>The point is that if a novice were to grade it by type and not take the variety into account, they might note the lack of central wing and shield detail, and say something like "VF obverse, VG reverse, net Fine" or some such. >>



Agreed. And to help make your point here is my example of same date in an Anacs F-12 holder. Notice the reverse of
my coin and Baley's coin have similar detail. But his piece has much more detail on the obverse. Very similar in color as well.
Nice pick-up Baley!!

Purple73

Nice coin Baley, Is this an upgrade for your type set?

greghansen

Thats niiiccceeee.

Baley

Thanks Stman, and your coin is a very nice example of the O.116, featuring the recut T in Liberty (the Y is also recut, but it doesn't show so well in this die state) and extensive die cracks about the date and left stars, this is one of the hardest working obverse dies in the series, they literally worked obv die 9 until the point of failure and paired it with no fewer than FOUR different reverse dies. Your coin has all the reverse characteristics of die L including of course the die crack at United but also the position of the leaf with respect o the I in America. On your coin, my guess is that the left hair and fillet never did have very strong detail, with the result of a little wear causing the center obverse to blend into the fields, several 1806 and 1807 varieties exhibit this.

thank you also purple and greg and others that responded, not a type set addition per se, as I am also collecting draped bust quarters and halves by die variety; however, this is now one of my most expensive and highest graded DB halves.

Nysoto

Baley,

Nice coin, you wanted it more than me . These are tough to grade, I would say no more than VF25, the peripheral details, where it is struck better, should have more detail for VF30. From the wear pattern on the coin, it appears the rev die has not only shattered, but also sunk - the obv lower ribbon and central hair are poorly struck - no support from the rev die.

I estimate the O.125a die state at R.6+, O.125 is a solid R.5. I have a couple of VF's, 1806 O.125 , and another VF with a little less detail but better quality. This die marriage is seldom found above VF. The obv die's second usage on O.109 is the most common draped bust half and has a better strike than most.

Bill

Baley

Hi Nysoto, thanks for your comments. I saw you on the bidder list and was kind of glad that there was a contender between us as it doesn't look like you would have won it with your proxy, even without my 5 second snipe

Another interesting thing: look closely at the date-- do you guys see the ghost of the point from a point top "6" sticking out above the 0?

There also appears to be the ghost of a round top 6 slightly above and to the left of the point top 6 in the date. Interesting!

could this very long lived obverse die have been repunched and re-annealed, after the new set of number punches was obtained in 1806? Is this an early state of this die which shows that it's really an 1806 over 1866?? VERY interesting!

PreTurb

...who do you suppose the underbidder was?...

I'll agree that it's a bit tough to grade, I'd call it a 20. However, I'll bet PCGS would give it a 15 at best. (Not that that really matters). If I have time later I'll post a similar DB in PCGS-15.

Nice scarce coin, good job.

Baley

I'll bet PCGS would give it a 15 at best.

I'll bet you're right, graded as a "type coin" it's a fine, and might not even grade, after all, look at those "scratches" on the reverse, at the D, O, and M. Never mind the bend that caused the "uneven wear"

Here's a coin that just happens to be in a PCGS F-15 holder, an O.102:



Stu Keen and Sheridan Downey both thought it looked like a VF20 to them, but what the heck do they know

(Not that that really matters)

Damn right

Looking forward to seeing your F-15, Pre-turb. Nice Avatar, btw (it's my 1799 dollar's reverse)