Sign of the Times--Coin Show Today

Clankeye

I went to a regional coin show today near Seattle. There was a dealer there that I have seen for a couple of years now. Usually, he has a lot of good, collector grade darkside material. Mostly Raw.

Well, I went to his table today and he had two cases full of NGC graded darkside material. I was a bit taken aback by this. I commented on it and he told me had become an authorized dealer with submission ties to NGC.

He had some very nice stuff, but I have to tell you it was kind of weird standing there looking at the ocean of white slabs. Primarily this man dealt in raw coins before.

Mixed feelings about this. Evolution. It does at times make one long for a simpler, more naive world.

Clankeye

1jester

Does this mean that a price rise into the stratosphere is imminent?

shirohniichan

It does at times make one long for a simpler, more naive world.

Yea, verily.

I think all the scams on eBay have many collectors thinking that if a coin isn't slabbed by NGC or PCGS, it's probably overgraded or a fake.

Sylvestius

Evolution sometimes is a very nasty process, i feel insulted seeing a slab with a grade on, i don't need some twit sat in an office issuing out certificates at a price to tell me what grade a coin is.

Don't you sometimes feel as if you're intelligence and knowledge is being affronted when seeing slabbed coins?

Smells too much like a purely Capitalistic profit venture to me too, consummerism really is a burden on the hobby.

cosmicdebris

I like being able to see the edges.

<<Sign of the Times>> Cool Queensryche song.

wybrit

I think all the scams on eBay have many collectors thinking that if a coin isn't slabbed by NGC or PCGS, it's probably overgraded or a fake.

I agree with this statement. Any day of the week I'd rather buy a nice raw coin. 85%-90% of my collection is raw. But, I returned a huge number of misclassified, overgraded, cleaned and whizzed coins I bought on ebay in 2004, including many from "reputable" ebay sellers. There were some I didn't bother to return because I did not want to see them get "lost" in the post. I'm pretty much in the slab camp now when it comes to ebay purchases.

I have made only two raw coin purchases on ebay this year. One of the two, advertised as UNC, certainly was that, but had artificial lustre. The picture and description did not indicate this to be the case. The other auction was for a bulk lot and I got what I paid for. I will not buy raw coins on ebay except if very, very cheap or from members of this forum.

ajaan

I buy raw on eBay, but it is usually only for my circulated Canadian sets.

It has been my experience as a buyer and seller that slab coins bring more money, even when taking into account the cost of slabbing. Of course this isn't true all the time, but more often than not.

coinkat

It may be a sign of the times, a way of having alittle insurance as to the grade and authenticity. All things considered, I don't view as a negative unless we start to see a complete expoitation of common coins.

Sylvestius

I'm afraid i need to physically hold coins, i get nothing out of just looking at them, i might as well just look at photos of them on the internet.

I've impaired a few proofs because i just couldn't resist the urge to take them out of airtight capsules to hold them (by the edges).

So i quit with proofs and i quit with coins i can't touch.

Hopefully they're not slabbing too much hammered stuff yet.

Aethelred

<< <i>

Hopefully they're not slabbing too much hammered stuff yet. >>




They (we) are.

Sylvestius

Argghhhh....

Clankeye

I am not a "slab-hater." I've kind of accepted them in US coins, and I agree with the sentiment about them certainly making eBay a much more leveled playing field. If you sort of know what you're doing.

Not to insult liteside collecting too much, but with a show like yesterday you walk by table after table with row upon row of Franklin halves, and Morgan dollars. All bright, shiny and with a certain... conformity. The slabbing almost fits it.

With the darkside material I was struck by how much the conformity of the white slabs diminished the individuality of the coins inside. At least when looking at so many of them laid side to side.

Just an emotional reaction to a new experience I guess.

Steve27

I can understand that some coins need to be slabbed, due mostly to high value, but I hope darkside doesn't become like lightside where almost everything is slabbed.

coinrookie

Well I have a more cynical view. E-bay is a problem for sure. I buy only cheap stuff raw. I think alot of the slabbing of Darkside is because it is getting more popular and dealers realize they can get more mula for a coin with a number on it.
Now I will still pay nice money for raw pieces, but only from people I have dealt with for a pretty good while. That being said, If I find a slabber that truly merits the money that is being asked for it, I will buy it in a heartbeat regardless of the number on the plastic.

Steve

CIVITAS

I can empathize with the dealer I guess. We are having a VERY hard time keeping our world coins out of slabs now that people are paying ridiculous prices for them. We've had a few coins come through already in slabs that I just couldn't believe the grades that were put on them, but we got the money for the grade (for the most part). A recent Newfie half in NGC AU-55 was a VF-35 at best. I think we'll eventually break down. When I can't sell a coin raw for $100.00, but as soon as it's in a piece of plastic that says MS-63 and I can get $200.00 for it, the choice is pretty obvious from a business standpoint.

Cladiator

When buying on eBay I buy 99.99% slabbed material. Every now and then I'll take a chance on a raw coin from eBay but I'd say about 80% of the time the coin was not accurately represented. Now when I'm at a show or dealing with a trusted forum member or dealer it's exactly opposite where the great majority of my purchases are made raw. Many of my slabbed eBay buys meet with my Slab Killer Bolt Cutters moments after the coin arrives (I love screwing with their pop reports lol)

Clankeye

I think your post certainly says it all, Civitas. That is the reality of the way the business of coins is going.

And I will say too, that I have seen grades on darkside and greyside slabs that to me just were way out of line. I don't consider myself an expert grader, but some of it was blatant.

Think about what a difficult task it is, with all the varieties and histories of world coins, that they can just be shipped off and correctly graded with any authority by large grading companies. But, if it says a certain number on a slab... well, darn, it must be that grade. And I sure do understand where that makes it far easier for a dealer to move a coin. Understand, I am not being critical of dealers here for going in this direction. It would seem that it is becoming necessary for survival. Just making observations.

Clankeye

And now I'm going back down to the coin show.

I'm hoping a little 1938 Canadian 25c is still there. And yes, it's raw.

Clankeye

Sylvestius

I never buy coins off of ebay anyhow so that's not a problem for me.

Spinynorman

<< <i>I went to a regional coin show today near Seattle. There was a dealer there that I have seen for a couple of years now. Usually, he has a lot of good, collector grade darkside material. Mostly Raw.

Well, I went to his table today and he had two cases full of NGC graded darkside material. I was a bit taken aback by this. I commented on it and he told me had become an authorized dealer with submission ties to NGC.

He had some very nice stuff, but I have to tell you it was kind of weird standing there looking at the ocean of white slabs. Primarily this man dealt in raw coins before.

Mixed feelings about this. Evolution. It does at times make one long for a simpler, more naive world.

Clankeye >>



Fortunately for me, my favorite darkside dealer there still deals in mostly raw coins.

MSD61

I have not one darkside coin in a slab, well not yet, I very much like raw coins and will by raw from ebay if the price is right and I can see good pics of the coin.

coachleonard

I agree with Sylvestius-- the whole 'history in your hands' aspect of collecting old coins is lost with a slabbed coin, cuz your hands never touch it! I do make the exception for fabulously pristine mint state coins-- when a coin is that nice, I'd just as soon not have my or anyone else's fingers touch it.

shirohniichan

<< <i>I can empathize with the dealer I guess. We are having a VERY hard time keeping our world coins out of slabs now that people are paying ridiculous prices for them. We've had a few coins come through already in slabs that I just couldn't believe the grades that were put on them, but we got the money for the grade (for the most part). A recent Newfie half in NGC AU-55 was a VF-35 at best. I think we'll eventually break down. When I can't sell a coin raw for $100.00, but as soon as it's in a piece of plastic that says MS-63 and I can get $200.00 for it, the choice is pretty obvious from a business standpoint. >>



When I finally get around to listing coins on eBay again, I think I will have the pricier ones slabbed by NGC first. It is amazing the difference people are willing to bid if the slabbers assign a grade to a coin.

JamminJ

For me certified coins have only brought a strong premium in higher grades, usually 65 or better, or where there is a big jump in value between circulated and UNC. In this case the certified grade serves as an effective communication - along the lines of "yes I am really uncirculated" or "I am a gem". There are very few sellers whom I trust to accurately make these determinations for me. Several e-bay buyers have commented to me how they grew tired of receiving misdescribed coins like sliders, cleaned stuff, etc. and that they're quite happy to pay a premium for a coin that is all there and a TPGs opinion made the difference for them.

While I think most people will disagree with TPGs from time to time since grading is, after all subjective, that really doesn't matter. What you need from a TPG is consistency rather than absolute accuracy. Overgraded or undergraded are both fine with me as long as I know what to expect once I get the coin in hand. For this reason I steer clear of specific TPGs in specific grades but will buy confidently sight unseen with the proper TPG and grade. On the bright side there are very few darkside coins where a single grade point yields a large increase in the value. This both reduces the incentive to work on the coins to receive an upgrade and gives some sanity to the pricing.

If you are selling any high grade or truly rare world coins in a sight unseen manner IMO you are doing yourself a diservice without certification.

-JamminJ

PuddlePirate

As a "newbie" to quantity selling on Ebay I am finding that quality "raw" Lightside stuff is tough to move, and certified unless it is MS65+ or PR66+ is murder, most of the "buyers" want a stealing deal and so my MS60-64 stuff just hangs in the electronic store. My Ancients are moving well enough, though but getting a decent price is just plain ugly. It is going to take time and patience to build up a liveable volume in sales.

I'm just in the start up mode and facing the long climb to acceptance. I can understand why so many "true dealers" are going to slabbed material. You don't have to really know anything for the majority of John Q public. They are not buying the coin, they are buying the numbers because someone told them only buy from number so and so to such and such. Back in the late 70's early 80's when I was selling Morgans in investment lots, we didn't even look at anything less than MS63. A miniscule point in personal observation MS62-MS63 and yet if it wasn't "solid" MS63 it was considered garbage/second rate material.

In the long run - perhaps another twenty-five years maybe, finding an unslabbed coin for sale will be the challenge. Slabs have their places, but I like to hold the little pretties in my hand.

SYRACUSIAN

Evolution. It does at times make one long for a simpler, more naive world.







If you think about it, the world is more naive now with slabs than what it was before, or so it seems to me. But I think I get the feeling you describe.

NJMark1

Oh that Bolivia 50 centavo is SWEEEEEET!

Mark